Mom and step dad have a decent retirement income and savings, but in the past year have started withdrawing large sums of cash. Suggestions?

15 years ago my elderly parents would take out $700 cash the 1st of every month. It was for Sunday breakfast after church, lunch out once a week, shopping (food, health & beauty, whatever else), hair cuts, Mom’s beloved Tuesday-night bingo ($5, that’s all she spent), and maybe a small tip for someone helping them. Anything left over at the end of the month went into a jar to be used if they ran short another month. That is just how that generation that grew up during the Depression lived — checks for bills, cash for everything else. They finally agreed to a credit card for gas because it was easier for them. Looking back, at that time, Dad had the beginnings of dementia & Mom was more “with it”. Some habits just don’t change.

I take cash out every 2 weeks for my husband & I for various expenses. And all our bills are on auto-pay as well — those bills that can be. Am sharing this because it could be innocent.

Before you should do anything, you need a sit-down with them to find out what's going on. POA is good for only paying bills, signing docs for them, etc. under their permission. Stopping their payments to anyone can only be done if the court has declared them incompetent.
It's an uphill battle to get a court to give you guardianship. That takes away ALL their rights, including voting, receiving mail, money from any source, etc. The guardian must approve (and order) everything, even medical care. I don't know about conservatorship. That may be different.
Questions to be answered:
If all their bills are paid automatically from their checking account, does their account hold enough to cover rising costs, so they withdraw from savings to cover them? (My own monthly costs have gone up $200/month over the last year. SSI went up $45.)
Have they had enough in checking to cover unusual yearly expenses, such as taxes, medical costs or prescriptions not covered by Medicare, auto repairs, an updated wardrobe?
Have they contracted for an expense, such as a newer vehicle, a stairlift to a second floor, uncovered medical equipment?
You can ask these questions in a way that preserves their dignity and their rights to spend their money until they are completely incompetent..
Or are they spending down so they will qualify for Medicaid when the time comes? After all, they are in their 90s.

In some cases a bank officer will help. Tell them you suspect a scam and they will look into it. Can't your husband just look at the bank statement?

Go to court. Its time.

Nigerian scams arent the only scams out there. My dad got a call from some guy from Jamaica. He had called and befriended my dad. Very quickly. My sis told him to quit calling, and gave him an earful. Sneaky guy started calling random day and night times hoping he would pick up. So telling him off didnt work. I dont kno if his # was blocked. It was old rotary phone. My mom had to put the volume very low so dad wouldnt hear it. He lost his hearing aid. It was bad bc mom still worked full time. So he was home alone. They make cold calls to find a lonely bored elderly person. She had to stop work bc of that and he couldnt be trusted at home alone.
I had a guy call me one time demanding my soc security #. I just laughed and he got angrier and threatening. So can you imagine an elderly person getting scared. Sad.

Jasima: Wow - but I'm not surprised that your father did this. I've seen it happen. My mother pulled out her wallet (large) when she wasn't even at the register to pay. One other time she dropped it on the ground and didn't even realize it. She was a legally blind woman, who had trouble with money and other things.

Ok so who is going to tell on you if you take credit card/checkbook away? The person with dementia? You dont let them see you took it. You tell them it must be somewhere. You have to get banking info away so they cant call the bank.
We just took my dads away. He didnt know. Gave him a few bucks to spend at pharmacy.

Grams keep us updated. I worry for yor mom & FIL. Did you ever quietly take the credit card away? See what's coming in the mail? Find out the #s calling the home phone? Or put a cam out to catch a suposid friend coming over?

G1952 - out of curiosity, what is the situation with other siblings?
Your FIL is not actually your hubs father but is a step-father, right?
& hubs mom is actually few years older & worse off than FiL, right?

Could it be the case that FILs kids will not be supportive of his paying or using “his $$$” for moms care for the day when she needs to go into a facility? What’s your heart 2 heart take on all this?
I’ve been on this site for quite a while and it’s a rare situation where the kids from prior marriages view the 2nd or 3rd spouse as a tru partner to their parent. What seems to happen is prior marriage kids give lip service in “we just oh so love MeeMaw” but will cut her out of a penny if they can. Would this describe any of his kids or better yet.... their spouses?

If you think this might be lurking, please please get your hubs to find a new attorney (I’d go CELA level) to discuss if best conservatorship or guardianship for his mom and let them come up with options as to how to deal with her future LTC Medicaid application. LTC Medicaid for when there is the NH spouse (his mom) & staying in the community spouse (FIL would be a CS) is just imho not a simple or straightforward process. It’s pretty daunting and each state has its own unique system. There’s going to be a separation of each of their incomes but it’s joint on all assets but how to do best for Medicaid varies. Plus the CS is going to do some sort of CSRA or MMNA (these are resource allowances - kinda like old school style alimony), & yeah this too varies by state. If you live in another state and his kids will likely be 1 sided when it comes to $ & assets, you & hubs will just have to get an attorney to represent your hubs moms interests.

At 91 & w/dementia, his mom is not going to get any better.
At 89, getting cash withdrawals & not recognizing if it’s $5 or $50, your FIL is going to be fleeced.
There’s going to be a fall or fire or other situation that places 1 needing a facility immediately. Hubs needs to get pit-bullie proactive for both his moms & his FIL health, safety & security. And that means getting a new attorney & soon. It’s not a DIY. We can share with you insight on our own experiences, but you need a new attorney to do what’s needed & soon. Good luck.

IMHO. buying silver is NOT going to give them the huge windfall that they expect. That should be halted. Having a difficult time discerning a $5 bill from a $50 bill is frightening - not to mention carrying on their person(s) large sums of cash! They are a walking target for crime!!

Our Dad had responded to a few mail scams & I was noticing a little confusion in processing his bills so my brother, who is POA, had our Dad's mail re-routed. We had all his utility, insurance, tax bills rerouted to his bank & they are paying them directly. Everything else comes to me & I take it to him every few weeks.

Go to their house and start nosing around. Check incoming mail, mail laying around, etc. If they are getting cash from the bank, you're going to have to talk to them to see what they say. If they are writing checks, it would appear you already have access to the bank account since you are aware of w/drawals, so get copies of the checks to see who they were made out to.

There is a 5 year look back period and large sums, like you state, are going to have to be explained. Giving away money/assets will cause them to be penalized when it is time for Medicaid to pay for a nursing home bed or other assistance. They may not even realize they are creating a future problem.

I say, go ask them about it and tell them you want to make sure they are not getting scammed or taken advantage of by someone. If one of them gets mad about you asking how their money is spent, try to explain they will not be able to get help when they need it if they give the money away. If they have used it for repairs on house/car etc, tell them you need to help them create a file for big expenses to document for Medicaid later on.

If all you get is an argument, it might be time to seek conservatorship before they create a problem that cannot be undone later on.

When you ask them about what they're spending the money on, will they tell you? Money is allowed to be spent as long it is for their care and receipts are kept. What about having competency evaluation performed on both of them? As afar as I understand it, if they are found incompetent than the POA becomes active. Perhaps his physician could talk to him about the ineffectiveness of the stem cells, etc. I'd also try to ascertain what charities are receiving money and if there are any individuals who are scamming them.

I know from experience that there are many one-time bills that don't fit under automatic payment. Things like new tires, car repairs, dead tree removal, dental emergencies, meds that cost beyond Medicare Part D limits. Some churches require promise of tithing for membership. Maybe they are saving for a cruise. Not everything os going for junk.

In addition to fake health products, your mother and step dad may be responding to too many solicitors and scammers. Checks and Credit Card charges would be able to be traced so you (or POA husband) can see where money is going. If they are using cash, can you intervene in how they get that cash?

I want to urge you to try to get conservatorship if you can. I have a friend whose father, a well off former architect, was totally impoverished and forced to sell the home he had designed and built himself because phone scammers were taking his money. This had been going on for a while before my friend discovered the situation. By that time, a great deal of money was gone. It was a heartbreaking situation. Unless you have that authority it may be hard to get the bank to do anything for you.

How are they getting the cash? Are they driving with denentia??? Please tell me their not driving. If they cant drive they cant get cash, unless someone is taking them to the bank. You can ask the bank to call you if that is happening. Or maybe set up something where you need to be there? Ask the bank I'm sure they have seen this before.

If you have to get conservatorship do it! You've got to stop the money flow now!
Id start monitoring them more closely. Do you live close by? Get their phone shut off. My dad was getting calls from Jamaica. A guy was pretending to be his friend. Trying to get $ sent to him. Mom turned the phone volume down so he wouldnt hear it ring. If you visit daily, they dont need a phone. Surprise visit so maybe you will catch someone there? Unplug phone or have it shut off. Altho someone needs to make sure they are alright.
My dad also started sending away for everything in the mail. You can get on a no more junk mail list to cut that down. Maybe get the Mail sent to you? We put my parents name on that so it helped some.

Put up a camera so you can see if anyone goes to their door. Who knows if someone is soliciting them for money. Pretending to do work for them, or be their friend visiting.
Change out the checking account register/checks for a fake one. They wont know and can write checks forever, and there is no real account. Might be easier than saying your taking it. Switch it out. Take their check book, but dont let them see. As soon as you do that there will be a huge fight.
You have to get that money flow to stop and get to the bottom of it.
My mom had to take the checkbook from my dad. She said he had lost the checks. That way he wasnt mad at her. He looked but didnt spend hrs searching.
You have got to stop that now. Good luck. How awful.

Ignore the experts for the moment. Common sense dictates you and husband MUST control their spending, or at least get details on where the money is going. Spend some time at their house and gather bank statements, other paperwork. With their dementia, they probably won't notice any missing papers. If you think they'll notice, take pictures of bank statements and other paperwork with your phone. You can also create online log-ins for their accounts, so you can get details as they occur. Yes, this is a legal gray area, but if your parents don't already have online log-ins for their accounts, it's easy to do--AND, it prevents someone else from doing it, someone like the housekeeper or the friend-of-friend they've allowed to move in with them. You can walk into their bank with the signed DPOA and the bank will most likely accept it, despite horror stories you may read. (Don't bring the parents to the bank!) The bank will scan it, email it to their legal department for approval, and you will walk out in an hour with your signed original back in your pocket. While you're at the bank, ideally their local branch, explain the situation to the bank person helping you--"mom and dad have dementia, they are being scammed, please contact me if you notice anything unusual, here's my number." The parents are probably too far gone to be allowed to conduct any business or make any decisions, and they will only get worse as the months go by. Start taking over EVERYTHING. Most likely they may verbally protest your "interference," but they will be unable to take any other steps to prevent your "meddling." This is real life vs. elder law. The elder law attorney is good for creating documents, but not so good for dealing with your parents' dementia in the day-to-day reality. You must contact their doctors, lawyers, etc., and tell them about the parents' dementia, and give them your contact info. PS: But don't tell the elder law attorney that you took their bank statements and set up online log-ins!

Continue to keep an eye on it. As soon as you see signs of them not knowing or remembering what they are spending, get a POA and take control of their spending. Get involved now, or end up paying the difference later when they can’t afford the level of care that they need because they spent irresponsibly. Don’t allow debt to accumulate.

It is their money, they can spend as they wish, they cannot transfer funds or assets to family members, friends or the likes, but, as far as spending, I repeat, it is their money to buy a new car, put windows, carpets, furniture in their home, go on lavish trips, and you can't get most elder law attorney's to agree to conservatorship. However, if you honestly feel someone is scamming them out of their money you could have Social Security look into it by filing a fraud report, however, this should only be done if you can back up your allegations.

First, try to talk to them and offer to take over the management of their financial affairs. It is a common symptom of dementia that there is poor judgment with financial matters, and elderly people are also targeted by scammers. Can your husband move some of their money to another account in their name where they won't see it? People have a right to spend money on things that please them and even to make poor money decisions. But if dementia is involved, it's different. Now is the time to make sure that all paperwork is in order (will, power of attorney for financial and medical affairs, etc.). My bank required it's own POA document for my mother's accounts. Fortunately at that time, she was still able to sign documents.

Your parents spending does not affect their ability to get Medicaid. Your parents GIFTING does. As my (somewhat crass) Medicaid attorney says, "your parents can spend their money on hookers and booze in Las Vegas, they just can't give you money to spend on hookers and booze in Las Vegas." Another example, what would be the difference in your parents buying expensive stem cell supplements, or buying all new (unnecessary) windows for their house? I ask because this was my case -- my mother was talked into several new windows as well as new rain gutters, and having large, old trees removed from the backyard...all to the tune of $25K (!!) It really hasn't affected anything in terms of her eligibility for Medicaid. We had invoices and we had cancelled checks. That's what Medicaid cares about -- being able to trace large sums of money. These examples go to show that your Elder Care attorney is correct -- without a court order, your parents can spend, spend, spend. My advice: Elder Care attorneys are not Medicaid attorneys -- I'd meet with the latter to help you understand the process of becoming Medicaid eligible, if the time should ever come. It's pretty eye-opening.

Every time you spend time with your parents, be sure to you “engineer” a conversation about their community.

Keep a stockpile of “openers” in your head - to get Mom & Dad to open up about who they see and who they interact with.

Who bought the Jones’ house at the end of the street? Who do you trust to service your car, now that Bob’s Garage is closed? Is XXX’s niece still a cashier at Walmart? Muse that you see (or don’t see) a lot of families with young kids in your parents’ neighborhood now. Ask your parents who cleans their gutters, who mows their lawn, etc (act like you want a recommendation for someone).

Every time you see Mom & Dad, make sure that some aspect of your conversation spurs them to reveal something about their little world.

If Mom or Dad mentions a “nice single mom” or “fella who’s down on his luck,” pay special attention.

they go back 5 years. So unless they have cash to go somewhere they might be out of luck.

It might be Best from the Rest to Advise Dad to be Careful in case they do Need to go into a Nursing facility, Do it Carefully. Maybe good he is doing it Now but in the Future if things are looking like a Facilty, You may need to set foot In to make sure it is Protected. See the Courts then.

If they can tell you how they are spending the money it will be helpful to the solution. My mom buys a lot of supplements too....... Her supplier has her info on file. I am joint on my mom's accounts. I try to keep the balance in the checking account low- a couple hundred more than the expected bills, all on auto pay too. Mom has no ability to go on line and move money. Not too computer savvy. Now she is SURE she needs an atm card- she has never had one. Not happening. We agreed on an amount of cash that is reasonable for her to have on hand. I would replenish once a month when I visit. This suits her just fine. I think it is something finite she can control as managing the the house is a bit overwhelming for her.

My sister an I are more worried about fraud and her being swindled out of large sums of money than her having 100 rolls of toilet paper on hand, a dresser full of supplements and some cash hidden in her bottom drawer. She understands the need for us to know the location.

There are two different types of DPOAs. One is immediate and the other Springing. Springing is only in effect when the person is found incompetent to make decisions for themselves. This is what I had for Mom. Yes, I wrote her checks and signed them POA with her permission. But I didn't fully take over until her Dementia made it that I had to. So u need to read the POAs.

First, get ur inlaws evaluated. If they are found incompetent, than ur husband can take over. As POA the siblings really have no say. He can keep them in the loop but parents assigned him. You can then take their checkbook out of the house. My uncle was able to put him down as the only signer on my Gma's account. (Family member was forging checks) Maybe DH can do something like that.

Conservatorship may cost money. I think Medicaid allows the use of ur parents money to set it up. Check with ur lawyer.

"We would love to take control, but it has to be a legal process, and other siblings are not all on board."
The sibling issue is the bigger problem, and maybe the only way would be guardianship. This could become a nightmare, both for time and expense, esp if parents or siblings contest it. If there is any way around this, it would be better!

"Elder Care attorney says that without going to court for conservatorship, we can't control their spending."
The "expert" who chimed in seemed to back up your attorney's statements. I am confused about this though. DPOA becomes "effective" the minute it's signed and gives one the authority to make financial decisions. Curbing spending maybe isn't part of that, but restricting access to funds could stop the drain. With DPOA you should be able to move the funds to a "safe" place, without taking the money to your account, in their own acct or trust.

When my mother was making mistakes (no excess spending, just mistakes), I stepped in and took over. We had DPOA and she added me and YB to her CU acct long before this. However, she had opened an acct in a closer bank, and had SS deposited there, for easier access to cash when she wanted/needed it. I was NOT on the acct and did no business with them, so they didn't know me. I had SS redirected to the CU acct and once verified, I took her to the bank with DPOA and withdrew all the funds via check and closed the acct, then deposit it in her CU acct. She did/said nothing other than rifle through her wallet/purse, both at CU and bank. I have read others' say banks refused to honor POAs, but in our case I got no flak. Meanwhile we had the EC atty revise/update so we could protect her home and assets (trusts.) As her CDs matured, I transferred the funds to my acct and then deposited these into the trust acct (EC said this was okay as I was "disabled." Bank/CU didn't know that! Not sure how that works, but...) No one ever gave me grief.

I had to sign up as SS rep payee, to change the address for paperwork (can't forward federal mail and federal entities DON'T honor any POAs.) It was worse getting to be her rep for the pension as it is federal, but eventually the right words were written up by the doc - funds still go to the primary acct, but I manage it all from there and can work with pension people for changes.

IF they have excess funds (savings, etc.), can you not move those to a sub-acct or lock them into CDs? DPOA should allow that. See EC atty and set up a trust for these funds? Their regular income will have to be addressed differently. You could try the SS route (call local office, not the 800#, unless you enjoy being on hold!) for their SS income. If approved, it goes to you as rep payee and each has a special acct only you can access. It requires yearly reporting, but can be done online (keep good receipts/accounting.) Other income would have to be taken care of as well, leaving them "enough" to have money for "extras", but not enough to blow on these probable scams or carry around with them.  

Curious to know if you can figure out who their "contact" is for the silver - hopefully not one of the resistant siblings...

If all else fails, then guardianship will be the answer. If they continue to blow through their savings/income, with no legit paper trail, it could prevent them getting Medicaid, if/when they might need it!

I would meet with the EC atty (or another, might get free initial consult) and discuss the issues and what can/can't be done. Having more or less taken over their acct(s), I don't understand why it's so hard to move assets to a sub-acct or CD to prevent access. A trust set up (you and another trusted person as trustees) would be best and less expensive and time-consuming than going to court (consider house trust as well.) If you can get approval to be rep for any pensions, redirect enough of the funds to another sub-acct for them, leaving them "spending" money, and protect the rest.

Hope you find the simplest solution!

Have you directly asked them why are they withdrawing money? I am curious what they would tell you.

You mentioned church. Do you think they are donating to the church? Some churches ask for lots of money.

You can't control his spending without conservatorship/guardianship. Just make sure he understands that he will become a ward of the state when he has no funds left.

Folks who are competent can make their own stupid decisions. That does not, however, obligate their children to rescue them from their poor decisions after the fact.

If the current laws permit elders to be taken advantage of financially, I don't see how the government [aka Medicaid] can then deny funding for care just because they've lost money to swindlers.