For those of you who followed my posts from 2 years ago, I received a mix of support and criticism for not being able to break free.
As an update, my birth mother, with whom I had contact with most of my life to support her, but rarely saw as she could not cope with life, fell into a narcissistic collapse or depression about 2 years ago. I had decided I would not go through it again. I would financially support her, but not bring her near me without signs of decency.
In 2 years, she has pushed away rabbis that put her in a nice home, found apartments for her, my sister - who was a drug addict but recovered/blue collar not to my mother's glamor/beauty-seeking lifestyle needs, community members.
She claims nobody helped her "they only recommended I get an apartment... they only offered me something I didn't want." Only you... only you... only you can save my life. Please rescue me, I’m like a baby and you wouldn't leave your son alone.
My mother continues to stay in a hotel. She may read this as she is still quite sane. She stalks my business (some doubted I was a public figure, but it is true). She found my company website, threatened to contact my members, can see everything I am doing. She'll probably see this. No amount of blocking can get around anything unless I go off the grid and move out of the country and give up my business.
We've recently offered 4K/month. It’s not enough. She needs my love to get better. She won't eat. She won't leave her hotel room. We've asked her to see a counselor 100 times. We've offered to help her budget.
Is it possible she truly can't? Her voicemails (which are blocked, but guilty, I sometimes listen) reveal a woman who wishes she had a different life and has much regret about what she didn't get. Why didn't she get more? She got beauty, a husband, 2 children...but those weren't what she wanted. She constantly finds people/places/situations to blame for everything.
I've gone back and forth with compassion and hatred - trying to be equanimous. I spend weekends at police in my city, reinforcing my harassment order.
We considered involuntary treatment but it won't do any good - she was taken one night. We've considered no-contact.
I do believe that she might die. My husband is sick from this. Kind, passive man now gets so angry when he tries every weekend.
We try only to be told we haven't done anything but send money and offer help from afar... which isn't help. The caregiver we sent to help her (she doesn't need caregiving, but we tried and got her a spa appointment). She refuses to spend a nickel on anything. She is so paranoid about not having enough money, but the 50k/year offer wasn't enough. She needed love (???) and has decided that the only way she is willing to live is if I give her love and spend my days with her each day to help her be calm, take her to doctors, get her face done. She won't do anything or eat unless I come there. Then she begs me to take her to euthanasia.
This is our daily lives, which we have accepted, but we are holding our boundaries.
She holds on to one visit we had in 2014 when I saw her for 2 hours (she claims 3 hours) where we were so happy. She claims I invited her to San Francisco once so she must not be that bad. I now haven't seen her in 10 years. She won't start with a conversation.
My sister, who is also estranged, offered her to live with her when she said she couldn't live alone.
She refuses any city other than San Francisco. She says she can't travel by herself and is weak. The hotel corroborates that she barely leaves the room. She has left one message on my home phone (unlisted) for my son who has met her 4 times only that he has to understand that grandma is lonely and what would he do if his parents were dead and he had no food.
She must not know any other way to live or be.
We don't know how this will end, but I'm not able to do more than I have done which is giving her 100 chances to make one good choice.
You have been more than generous , offered therapy , but you can not force a mentally ill person to get help .
Think of it like this . It’s like an alcoholic who won’t get help , or a schizophrenic or other mental illness that make some people unable to cope .
Unfortunately , not all of these people can be helped or saved . And yes they die . Alcoholics , drug abusers , mentally ill people etc become homeless , become medically ill and die.
Families can try and try but at some point it is time to accept that you can not do anymore for someone who does not what to get help .
My husband works with a woman whose son was a passenger in a car accident in high school . He survived , his friend did not . This boy finished college and then he told his mother he has been extremely depressed with survivor guilt . He wasn’t even the driver , so it’s not like he could have been responsible in anyway for his friends death . This young new college graduate felt guilty for having the possibility of a bright future that his deceased friend would not have . Nothing helped this young man , not the meds, not therapy. He couldn’t handle working , he lived with his parents. Then he said he was leaving because he felt like a worthless freeloader and ended up homeless . The parents tried to keep track of where he was and visit . They lost track of him , even hired an investigator to no avail . The parents finally had to accept this and leave it in God’s hands .
Some people can not be helped and you need to let it in God’s hands what happens .
Let this go , your mother’s threats etc . If you want to send her $4,000 a month , do that and nothing else . She may or may not starve to death . No contact . Live your life with your own family before you lose your husband and son .
You could angst over her trying to “ starve to death “ for nothing . She could walk across the street tomorrow to pick up takeout and get hit by a bus .
This is validating. And...she won't send a bank account. We could go to the bank to try to look up her account and force money upon her (she still has some funds).
Trying to force money on someone to make them feel better as a last resort by looking up their bank account is perhaps one of the most insane things we are considering. She's always been a penny pincher despite living in hotels. She's always tried to get money. Now she won't take it, so something has changed. It's not enough yet she sends emails "pay my bills!" although it is written "payigaho;hga;il bills!
Whether "mother" is "quite sane" or not is irrelevant.....She's still playing you like a fiddle because you do not have down the "boundaries" you seem to think you do.
If you're not very careful, she will outlive YOU and your dh.
I know it is painful to see a loved one make bad choices and continue to make bad choices despite the help that is offered. But you have no control over that. Grieve the loss of the nurturing mother you never had. Grieve the destructive choices she is making. But don't let them drag you and your family and your life down any more. This may sounds heartless but if she dies it is her choice, and not your responsibility.
You have offered her love again and again in offering options that show you care for her well being, but she has rejected them again and again. She wants to control your life. My mother was BPD. She tried that on me too. Her idea of love seemed to be that I did what she wanted. Even if I had and even if you did what she says she wants, she would not be happier or any better off. BPD/narcs are needy bottomless pits that suck your energy.
Her choices have much too much power over you and your family. Accept that she is mentally ill and making bad choices. She may be very bright but she is not sane (mentally healthy).
So set your boundaries, stick to them and get help in recovering from this assault on your emotions, It is extremely stressful and you and your family deserve an better life. (((((hugs))))))
How do you know she isn't eating? Do you monitor her daily food intake via video? What your mother says and what she actually is doing can and most likely are two different things. This is no different than a man or woman threatening to kill themselves if the other person breaks up with them or threatens to divorce them. It is a way to exercise power and control over YOU and your life.
So what if you mom kills herself by not eating? Your life would be 1000% better with her dead and that is the God's honest truth. But your mom's hunger strike, just like her threats to come and show up at your front door are b-ll sh-t.
If you really believe she is suicidal then call the police and tell them you need a wellness check done on your mother. Let them know the situation and they will handle it from there. More than likely your manipulative mother will act perfectly fine when the police show up. Hell she might even offer to fix them a sandwich.
Keeping the money spigot flowing is keeping this leech in your life. Turn off the spigot and the leech goes bye-bye to find someone else to suck the life from (both mentally and financially).
Only she can fix what is broken.
In order to do that you have to recognize broken in order for it to be fixed.
Stop offering, stop sending, stop
Stop "considering" no contact and go no contact. (trust me from what you have said she will contact you no matter what you do)
I’d like to put a bit of history behind ‘starving to death’, which used to be the way a very large percentage of people died. There was a tiny wealthy class, a very small middle class, and the rest had neither the spare food nor the time to force it on someone who turned it down. The old family members (more or less bed-bound) either didn’t want it, or preferred it to go to the children. They just faded away! And it wasn’t such a bad way to go either.
At present, you keep mother on the hook by supporting her, even if begrudgingly. She keeps you on the hook by responding to the support, which encourages her to ask for more.
I was subjected to my mother’s cries about how she’d kill herself if I devote myself to her 24/7. Yet here she is, 99, still alive.
1) Arrest. 2) Baker Act 3) She gets psychiatric help. Wouldn’t that be a good thing?
Nothing you do will fix her nor stop your guilt. It is entirely out of your control. You could send her $40,000/month and she’d still be a wreck and thorn in your side. Stop. Just stop. And live your own life. There is no happy ending to this saga.
I am still being logged out constantly. At least this account hasn’t been deleted.
Have you sat down with your therapist, you do have one, right? And worked through all the possible scenarios?
Do you want to send her $4,000 a month and never have any more contact with her? Do you want no contact at all? Do you want her not to die, is that your main goal right now?
Please take some time to figure out what you really want and how you would make that happen if you were really in control--and then figure out that you can be, but only if you have the courage to take control of your own life. Decide if you are going to sacrifice the rest of your life to your mother or decide to live your own life with your own family.
It's as simple as that. Do it or don't. Take charge or not.
I want to know that not visiting her was the right choice. She has said coming for a week will do nothing. I want to know that I couldn't have saved her life or helped her pain go away without the huge trade-off.
**I can't know this. I could go for a week and leave. It might be devastating and traumatic for me. She might hold on to my leg or hop on the plane with me.
I want to know that she will not show up here and harm my family.
I want to know that she will not go crazy and harm other people.
**I can't know this. I can't control this.
May you receive clarity, wisdom, strength, courage and peace in your heart as you find healthy, life-saving boundaries.
I do have counselors and have spoken to crisis centers. They have never seen anything like this.
I'm also living under the threat of her reaching out to all of my business contacts as I'm a public figure in Japan. I can't block myself from the world.
I'm also living under the threat of her showing up. These are real threats.
It's a daily balancing act.
She has put in my brain that the only way for me to heal is to let her come here.
I do love your last quote!!!! I will meditate on this. "May I receive clarity, wisdom, strength, courage, and peace to set healthy, life-saving boundaries."
Have you started seeing a therapist yet to help treat your mental illness? You are as sick as you claim your mother is and probably more.
The worst thing anyone can do for you is to give you any pity or validation and I hope no one here does. You feel sorry enough for yourself and are a professional victim. You don't need anyone's pity or validation. You need psychiatric help.
It's a holding pattern isn't it?
Mother wants something.. a magical something.
You & your DH send money so she is not homeless, but have drawn your line there.
Your Mother has shown over & over she cannot, will not change.
You can only change yourself.
Are you wanting change?
What is it you want to be able to do?
I personally don't have a problem at all if any of my family choose to bow out in their terms - if they were old, ill, in pain. If they wanted to wean themselves from this life.
Call it *starving themself* or *slipping away* to be nicer if you want. These are mere words - makes no difference to me.
Starving for attention.
OCD, is this liteterally what your Mother is now doing?
She has had many opportunites to seek help & change her course.
It is what it is.
PS Have you considered how paying her hotel bill enables this? If you stop & the hotel manager evicts her she will be Baker Acted.
What stops you doing that?
That's pretty hard to hear, even if I can't remember any real time my mother was there for me. I have 2 memories only - one where we had a storm at camp on a canoe trip and another when my dad was furious with the belt.
Baker Act would work at most for 30 days. It's not that easy. We don't think it will work and we think it will cause more harm. We also don't think it is pure mental illness. You also can't cure NPD/BPD.
Those are my two memories.
That being said - that is also much easier said than done. But you also have to realize that if she is a genuine narcissist - that while she may not really have control over some of this - her brain is twisted - narcissists are a "special" breed. No one else's needs matter. Everyone - and I do mean everyone - is put here on Earth to see that the needs of the narcissist are met. That's one of the reasons they classify people in buckets. People they are envious of because they want what they have, people who are beneath them and not worth their time, people who are supposed to meet their needs.
I'm going to be brutal -but its because we lived it with my FIL that I say these things. If she is genuinely a narc, and not just a regular selfish person - she doesn't care that you have needs - she doesn't even know that. People with NPD live in an alternate reality - where the things they think, the lies they tell, that's reality - that's truth. They believe the lies they tell, they believe that their needs come first and that no one else has any, they believe that anything they say is truth.
They CRAVE adoration and attention. There are two things that a person does to a narcissist that will send them into a spiral. Not give them attention, and call them a liar.
By not giving her attention - she is resorting to telling you what she thinks you want to hear. She knows that people want to be loved, and want to be needed. She doesn't understand it. She doesn't feel love, she feels "love" as she understands it - to her that is attention and things and fawning all over someone in spite of how they treat you. She wants you to feel guilty - guilt is a very strong manipulation tactic. She wouldn't do it for you but she expects you to do it for her.
I don't say any of this to hurt you. And if you have been dealing with this for years - you probably already know it.
But if she is genuinely a narcissist - everything she does has an ulterior motive - to get her own needs met. And she will say or do whatever is necessary. You have to protect yourself.
Don't you think the OP is the narcissist here? A professional victim with an unbelievable story. Even if it is true which I highly doubt it is, The OP is a professional victim who loves the pity and attention she gets from the people here and probably many other places as well, for telling the tale of woe about the mother.
This is a mentally ill person who needs serious psychiatric treatment. I would not be surprised if the OP has Munchausen's syndrome and actually hurts herself to enhance her victim mentality and to get greater levels of attention.
Don't validate this person. That will only make it worse.
OP is not supporting Mom at this point. Just saying it has been offered but Mom will not take it because thats not what she wants. She now wants to live in SanFrancisco and have a loving daughter. Well, she can't get to SanFrancisco and if she did, there will be no loving daughter. Seems OP has set her boundaries.
If Mom passes, that is not your fault, thats Moms. She had a husband and children and that was not enough. From what I remember from other posts, She was so beautiful men fell at her feet. These men took care of her and she traveled everywhere then she got old. Now, she wants that daughter (the one that seems well off) to be there for her 24/7. That daughter went out of her way for this woman and its not enough. IT WILL NEVER BE ENOUGH! Your Mom is mentally ill. She chooses to live this way. I could live on what you offer, frugally, but I could live. She is willing herself to die. It will come to a point that she will not be able to turn back.
Mom has always made her choices without thinking about who those choices effected. You have been told by a spiritual leader you are not at fault here. If I remember correctly, the Church gave up on her. She wants it her way or not at all, thats not how it works. People have lives, they just don't drop everything so she gets her way.
If Mom dies, then what you should feel is relief. Relief that her pain has ended. It must be horrible to have a mental illness. Relief, that you no longer have to try to be involved. No more phone calls from the hotel. No more restraining orders. Just a big sigh of relief. Mom lived the way she wanted to. And that way got her where she was. She had no idea what she wanted. Really, who turns down 4k a month. The ability to have a house given to them. I have a mantra that just popped into my head one day after trying to help someone.
"I am here to help people find the way, not be the way"
She wants to live in San Francisco with a loving college-educated daughter rather than live in St. Louis with her blue-collar daughter.
If she can't have me as a loving daughter, she wants to die. Yes, rabbis called her for 6 months in St. Louis and then in Florida there have been another 80 visits.
With all of this we are facing one more challenge. Which is that she says she is too weak to come here, but she will hire someone to show up.
She is begging us to come to Florida. We would go for a week or even 2 weeks. But she doesn't want us to come and visit, but to come and take her back to San Francisco or move to Florida. She just wants to be with me as her best friend and savior. She says she doesn't want to hurt anyone.
My husband has now said no. He thinks she is a horrible person. I give her more grace that she is mentally ill and not totally horrible. Nobody is totally horrible, they just do horrible things.
She still may show up - so then what? or she may die. But she has blamed me for "only offering her a house in the United States." I can't remember one doctor visit she took me too - didn't come to my wedding. I've offered now to call her every day, help her find doctors, but it is one thing and one thing only - nurse her back to health and bring her here. It is too much risk.
I would go no contact, including cutting off the money, and let her do want she is going to do. Her body, her life, her choices. It's time to live your life and stop worrying about her happiness.
I didn't go see her. I didn't try.
"What kind of a daughter leaves a mother to die."
"You could save my life. Why won't you save my life!!!!"
"I gave birth to you and didn't throw you in a trashcan."
"Don't listen to anyone else - they don't know my trauma."
So for anyone here who thinks I am sick too - agreed perhaps. In most cases of no-contact the parent at least lives in a house or has someone. They usually say that other relatives pressure them. In this case, my mother has nobody - all due to her own fault - but I can't imagine her pain.
That said, that is because she won't let me forget her pain, which is why I have to reprogram my brain.
It really isn't that simple to have a 78 year old frail woman arrested. Then she'll get released and just be up the street in a hotel spending her last dollars to try to get to me.
"She still may show up - so then what? or she may die." Seriously if she hasn't shown up yet then she is not going to show up. Just tell her to either 1. show up so you can have her arrested for violating the restraining order you have taken out on her or 2. die already because you are done.
She continues to send copies of tickets and shows agencies that can escort her here if she is too weak to travel. This is the only life she wants with me and as she wrote "You aren't supposed to give up until you aren't breathing."
YOU CANNOT NURSE A MENTALLY ILL PERSON BACK TO HEALTH. Full stop.
You either realize and accept this or you don't. Things will not miraculously be better just because she is with you in SF. She will still be mentally ill and have the same behavior she does now. Except you will have to deal with it every single day 24 hours a day.
What do you expect to change????
But she won’t take anything else - so that is what I am trying to solve day and night. How can I find a solution so she won’t come here. That is why I have gone to police here.
People think no big deal if she shows up, but that would be intolerable!!!!
Understand what you can control and what you can’t. You can’t control whether Mom flies herself to San Francisco, but you can control not picking her up. You can’t control her finding your social media, you say, but you can block her from your page. And so forth.
Shes had, what, six rabbis tell her that her interpretation of “honor thy father and thy mother” is not going to result in you “loving” her by accepting her demands. These rabbis, you, likely your sister have told her this but she won’t listen.
As for you, you’ve had multiple people recommend to you to stop obsessing over her attitude. But just like your mom, you can’t. OCD does after all run in families.
The reason this looks nuts to laypersons and clergy is because…it is. I suggest you write a letter to your mom about what your boundaries are and how to approach it. My suggestion is to come after it as a dispassionate expert and not really send the first draft, which should be you thinking on things.
For instance:
So mom. I thought about how best to love you, and it’s to tell you how it is. Last I heard, you were paying 12,000 a month in hotel bills as of x/2023. You are running short of money. Once you have no money, I will not pay for you to stay in 4 star hotels.
Then list the things you will do, forcing yourself to confront your actual expectations. Because I’ve heard all sorts of things from you that are as batty as she is, like you offering her a paid off house when youre still in a 2br apartment. To be blunt, do your own actuarial analysis on what mom has cost you already and future projections.
As above, she panics about her bills but when we say we’ll send you 50k if you see a doctor, she won’t.
The police have explained if she’s in such distress she can’t think logically.
we are past writing letters. Letters are for reasonable people.
And we do live in a 2 bedroom condo in San Francisco - but that’s 1.5 million. We can afford to buy her a house.
We can do math. We are also both CFAs. We’ve got the money thing covered. We don’t value more space and we don’t value fancy hotels or nice cars. We have everything we need so if we are blackmailed, it’s because we want to buy what has value - and that is having my mother settled.
i am actually not as crazy as many think. Yes, I think about this too much. Meanwhile I’m running my own business which is going great, my son was valedictorian, and I’ve got a husband. I workout every day. I’m doing okay - just this insolvable thorn that when I have any doubts I haven’t done everything possible - as we haven’t let her come here and we won’t visit her because that won’t do any good. She needs to be here, only option in her mind - she needs to see me every day and be in a city where she can talk to places. I’m the only one in her mind. When someone is fixated on you, you can’t ignore them. She will not go away as she has no other options. My uncle called me yesterday. Haven’t seen him in 40 years. No doubt he wanted to know what was going on with her to protect himself. He won’t see her. He is 82. He is also rich. But she doesn’t want him. She wants me. Only me. Only me. Only me. This is what I’ve been hearing for a year.
The newer info on OCD being an issue with feelings & dealing with feelings (rather than thought loops) makes sense to my experience with my family member.
I've seen the distress of 'thought loops'. One eg: The linen/clothes have moved or been rearranged in the cupboard. But it is the FEElING she cannot bear. The feeing is overwhelming & awful. This may cause the thought:
*I must check the cupboard*
Cupboard gets checked. Yet when the feeling bubbles up again, the feeling is awful again - intolerable & must be removed. The thought to check the cupboard again to soothe it.
The fact that the cupboard was ok 30 mins ago does not appear to have impact on their internal thinking. Being told this by others (external info) is futile. It can not be felt, does not appear to change their feeling.
Interesting to read about - but what an awful disorder to have.
Life is too short to continue to enable this ridiculous drama from such a master manipulator, who has already had a long and exciting life.
She is damn lucky she doesn't have Stage 4 cancer, or is suffering extreme pain, or similar brutal health issues...just an overblown drama queen.
OP, you won't get the time back you have wasted and continue to waste.
She is starving but is still living to manipulate the drawers off of you. She is eating something from somewhere if she is still contacting you.
Haven't you guys had enough of mom's self-indulgent nonsense? When are you going to pull the plug and start ignoring her shenanigans.
If the mother is willing to starve herself to death beause she doesn't get her own way, and willing to sacrifice her life to stubbornness, so be it.
She won't starve herself to death. She's giving the performance of a lifetime. She isn't going to end the show without a a few bouquets of flowers and some curtain calls.
She will probably go to the hospital at some point for added dramatic effect.
She'll weaken herself from not eating, but she won't starve herself to death.
You know the mother as well as the OP probably has Munchhausen's syndrome. They both enjoy the attention that comes from being victims and likely the attention that comes from heathcare professionals for being sick.
These are very sick people who need serious psychiatric help.
Move your mother into an excellent Assisted Living Facility in San Francisco (check out the Rhoda Goldman Plaza ALF). Your mother will be overjoyed to move closer to you. The ALF will take good care of her including meals, activities including outings to museums etc, transportation to/from medical appointments, etc.
You can hire a long distance non-emergency transport company to drive mom from Florida to the ALF, or hire someone to fly with her to SF. Hire a company to pack up all her belongings. Make sure the ALF is ready to admit her when she arrives, and do not pick her up at the airport or let her into your home EVER.
Continue to block her attempts to contact you as much as possible. If she shows up at your front door do not let her inside EVER.
Tell your mother that you will visit her at her ALF twice a month - ( but never take her anywhere or allow her into your home.) Take an industrial strength tranquilizer before each visit to protect yourself and limit your visit to one-two hours max. Be prepared to leave sooner if it's simply not tolerable. Just hold your nose and get the visits over with. You don't need to act lovingly with her, just be there and remember that murder is a capital crime. :-) (that's a joke!)
Best case scenario: your sense of guilt will decrease and your mother will be happier. The ALF would take good care of her and lessen your feelings of worry.
Worse case scenario: the situation wouldn't be any worse than it is currently.
Because it sounds like you are willing to do more for your mother and you're going mad torturing yourself about this.
Good luck OCD,
I believe here the OP lacks any legal authority to sign for move the Mother. Does the OP believe in the new boundaries she set? These need to be solid first
"This is bombardment every hour from a different source that won’t let me stop thinking about it."
Can I ask, is this bombardment internal or external?
Your own thoughts? Unstoppable & derailing your day? Internal
Or do you refer to the content coming in from your Mother, the calls, emails etc? External
I get that the messages etc cause your thoughts to race (external input causes the internal stress).
Yet this is like standing in the rain. Getting wet & constantly worrying the rain may fall harder.
Yet not moving inside out of the rain. Not even pulling up your rain jacket hood.
Why not move out of the rain?
You mentioned this gets the better of you every 6 months or so. Is there a pattern? Have you noticed a cycle to your distress?
Feelings you describe, of being hunted, watched.. has a professional described these as paranoid thinking? Feelings of being 'the only one on the world who can help' - has a professional described this as grandeous thoughts?
I really hope you have a Therapist, Psychologist, Psychiatrist you work with. So you can continue forward in your own life
The more you enable her, the more you hurt yourself. You let her take up far too much room in your head. Take small steps of ignoring her - one, minute, one hour one, whatever at a time, All these dire predictions are in your head and are driving you nuts. Let them go and don't fixate on them. Just get on with that good life you say you have, Distract yourself with things your enjoy.
Just stop doing the expected response. Tell your son not to have contact with her or tell him you DO NOT WANT TO HEAR IT when he does. If your mother is lonely let him take her in and leave you the hell alone! Stop feeling guilty, this woman does not love you or care one iota abut you.
But I really don't think you want it to stop because I think you enjoy the drama. Sorry but that is how I feel when I read this post. I think you like feeling that it is only you who can "save" your mother with your "love". News flash, it is a crock of s**t. If you were not here, if you got hit by a bus or dropped dead of a heart attack, her life would go on. She'd make someone else miserable --probably your so-called blue collar sister who is less than in your eyes and in your mothers (give me a break) and not give you a second thought because she is a narcissist .
Tell the rabbis to leave you alone. Tell your mother's friend who is calling you that you don't give a rats a** anymore. What do you care what anyone thinks about you and your relationship with your mother They are just enjoying feeding off your drama because their lives are boring. If anyone cares that much, tell them to take care of her.
Fear. Of what?
Two evils? I see but one.
This - as it is.
How to protect your family?
You know how.
🪨👻✂️