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WOW. Just wow.


In all my 81 years, even living in S.F. where Karpman first spoke of this syndrome in 1968, I was unaware of its existence.


It is amazing. I recommend Wikipedia, where I found the best quick explanation.


I hope all here will read it, because this is something we see playing out on AC over and over and over again. What is truly fascinating is the ease with which people can switch from victim to persecutor, moving about this "circular" triangle ad infinitum with no escape.



Can't thank those of you speaking about this on the threads today enough. And I am so glad that I took a few seconds to read responses today, something I don't often take the time to do, and clearly should do more.

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Thanks for bringing this to the attention of the forum, Alva. We can always learn something new from others.
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I also felt that WOW. Just wow feeling when I first read about this. (I think it could have been on an AC forum thread).

I had seen this!
I had heard friends tell of this!
I had been part of this too!
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If anyone wants an example;

A friend, had this triangle system form around her, hated it but couldn't stop it.. until she SAW the pattern.

I'll call my friend *Jan* & her siblings *Marcia & *Bobby*.

Marcia would call Jan. Complain about Bobby. He did this.. he did that, ain't he bad.. pushed Jan to team up with Marcia & exclude Bobby. (These were fully grown ADULTS, not kids).

After some weeks, Bobby would reach out to reconnect with Jan. Sought her sympathy.. Marcia had treated him badly, convinced Jan. So Bobby & Jan would team up & exclude Marcia.

Then after a while, Marcia would call Jan & start her campaign again of HE's at fault. Bobby is the bad guy.
Back & forth.

Occassionally Marcia & Bobby would team up & excluded Jan.

My friend called it a *Toxic Triangle*.

Once she SAW it, saw how she was being manipulated to take sides, be a friend or be assigned the foe... she decided to be NEUTRAL.

Each time one sibling called to moan about the other she said NO.
🛑 I not be your listening post.
🛑 I will not be involved.
📢 If you-Marcia have a problem with Bobby - call Bobby!
📢 If you-Bobby have a problem with Marcia - call Marcia!

And just like that.. their family moved from a toxic triangle style to direct, more honest communication.
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Just did a quick read and yes I see this happen on AC all the time.
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Need, wish I could get the credit, but it was Beatty who brought us this. On one of the threads. The "estrangement thread" as another member called it.
I find it amazing.
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Alva,

It is amazing and worth discussing as a topic on this forum. That’s what I love about this forum. It’s wonderful to be able to share these insights with each other.
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Holy fish. I just realized I'm living this cycle with my sister. I'm her caregiver, and she's shut herself off from folks... for which she blames me, then begs me to reach out on her behalf or introduce her to new people, and then acts as if she's a victim because I've supposedly refused phone calls (she has a cell), or not answered texts, or what have you. Wow.

Gonna go reading for suggestions!
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Quite amazing, isn't it Nick!
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Yikes!
When an elderly becomes dependent due to dementia, physical debility, etc they actually do need help and it can ignite “the victim” and “rescuer” roles for sure. Especially if/when there were any elements of parentification of the child in the original relationship.
this also reminds me of “learned helplessness”
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👍
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Has anyone found the info on the healthier positions to take on instead of a toxic triangle corner?

Rescuer to Coach is one.

Just as JoAnn always says.. I can show you the way, not BE the way.
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Just lost my mother last week. The post funeral dinner blew up in my face because I was the go between for my sisters. I am the people pleaser and my sisters both consider themselves victims of the other.

I finally decided not to go because I was so disgusted the three of us couldn’t even get it together for a lousy dinner. I canceled it. My husband and I went out for a beer afterwards. And that was that.

No more triangle for me.
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Sorry hothouseflower, hope things are going better for you now that things are said and done and the triangle is over, you can heal your pain and morn your way. And most of all find peace in your life 🙏
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Thanks Nacy, still have my father in the NH and there is their house to sell. But I’m not going to be the great communicator going forward.
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HH,

Wise decision to go out for a beer with your husband.

Sadly, some things never change. Why even try to change something when your family dynamics have always been this way?

If I were you. I wouldn’t want to be caught in the middle of your sister’s lives either.
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I bring this back up to the top again in the interests of especially one current ongoing thread that goes to 150 comments in no time once it appears.

I think it was Beatty who first talked about the Karpman Triangle? It is so absolutely fascinating, and this brief beginning of a very interesting Wikipedia writeup on it should make us all think:

"The Karpman drama triangle is a social model of human interaction proposed by San Francisco psychiatrist Stephen B. Karpman in 1968. The triangle maps a type of destructive interaction that can occur among people in conflict.[1] The drama triangle model is a tool used in psychotherapy, specifically transactional analysis. The triangle of actors in the drama are persecutors, victims, and rescuers.
Karpman described how in some cases these roles were not undertaken in an honest manner to resolve the presenting problem, but rather were used fluidly and switched between by the actors in a way that achieved unconscious goals and agendas. The outcome in such cases was that the actors would be left feeling justified and entrenched, but there would often be little or no change to the presenting problem, and other more fundamental problems giving rise to the situation remained unaddressed."

and etc. I highly recommending looking this syndrome up on Wiki; it's absolutely fascinating.
Most involved in this destructive and ongoing mess do NOT want our help. In fact, they only want to TALK ABOUT THIS. They want the attention. They are actors in their own play and they believe YOU just bought a ticket.
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Alva. I actually asked meta AI to explain it better to me. I get it but it's almost to simple to understand. If that makes sense, I was looking to deep into it.

Anyways I see where it could help you figure out where in life you are to help you realize your behavior, or why the same things keep happening to you, and why you always end up with the same kinds of people. That's what I'm getting out of it, if I'm correct?

Personally I'm still working on the golden child -scapegoat relationships. In my mental health crusade. 🤯 Accepting that I'm the scapegoat
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I honestly am thinking more of the sort of "Romeo threads" as they mirror this model, Nacy, in which the actors go from victim to perpetrator to rescuer with great fluidity, and with differing stories each time. It's quite fascinating. So you can visualize a triangle and in one corner you have a perpetrator, in one a victim and in one a rescuer. But these aren't stable. The "actor" can migrate, one moment being a perpetrator and doing the abuse. The next claiming to be a victim and to being the one abused. And it is just a sort of merry-go-round of attention. And in the mashup, this mess, they are seldom called to account, because no one can figure out their place in the scheme.
Life is SO interesting!
Do read the Wikipedia writeup on it. It's quite a lot of fun. See if you can see any sort of fit.
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