Surprised at when Power of Attorney ends.

I am so sorry for you loss.

Did your sister leave a will naming an executor?

If she did not (that is called "dying intestate") you will need to go to court to have someone appointed administrator of her estate.

I am surprised that the lawyer who prepared the Power of Attorney did not explain that it ended at death.

I’m sorry for your loss. I’m glad you shared here, it’s worth reminding everyone that POA does end in death. I was my dad’s POA, never used for anything in his life, but being on his accounts and being executor of his will has made most things easy to take care of after he died. I hope the rest of settling your sister’s estate will go smoothly

My sister, though she was well up until a couple months ago, seemed to be very meticulous in her planning for her death. She had documents for POA and a living will. I saw those, but did not go through the whole packet that they were enclosed in, my brother took that before I had the opportunity to read everything in there. I don't know if she had an actual will. My brother is consulting with an attorney who handled that for my sister, so I hope he is successful in confirming that it was in her papers somewhere that he will be executor. Between us dealing with my sister's illness, hospitalizations and nursing home situation, her apartment and bills, it has been overwhelming for him in the seemingly short time this took place. We did not expect her to die. I offer to help, but we believed it was better for one person to deal with paperwork to avoid confusion or miscommunication. But, no, the lawyer, who he did meet with and who prepared the documents did not explain that.

About 20 years ago my mom set up a living revocable trust for all her assets. When she passed, the only thing I had to do was meet with our CPA to get a new tax ID number; I sent all her financial institutions a copy of the trust (I was the successor trustee) and a copy of her death certificate.
Mom died in October: I had her estate settled by the end of the year. I didn't have to go through probate; I didn't have to involve a lawyer. It was relatively simple.
My husband and I are going to do the same thing.

Yes, POA ends with the death of the elder and that is when the Executor of the will or the Trustee of the Trust takes over. Many funeral homes understand this and will bill for expense. Some arrange for funeral ahead of time. In my own case I paid the costs and recovered them when made Trustee of the Trust now irrevocable (was revocable living trust while my bro lived).
I went to a Lawyer at once and got my papers of certification of Trust with myself as Trustee. The estate will need an EIN from the IRS. Originally I went through the application snail mail because online was complicated. It took three months for them to return a letter with questions and no EIN. I then let the Lawyer get the EIN and it took her only minutes. Once the EIN is in hand (I recommend the lawyer route-- my total costs at the Lawyer were 500.00.) you can get the accounts changed to "The estate of" and the executor uses this to settle out the will and distribute to the beneficiaries.
My advice honestly is to go to a Trust and Estate attorney. Let him or her know this is to settle and do filings on the estate of a deceased, not to create a Trust, as some don't do the former.

Unfortunately you are not the only one to discover that a POA ends at death. If it didn't the POA could still have access to the deceased assets and distribute them as they wished. That's the purpose of the will. It honors the wishes of the deceased.

I think the POA documents should always specify that it ends at death but none of them do.

My condolences on the loss of your sister. I have been sorting thru this since my mother's death. Federal agencies don’t recognize a POA so dealing with Social Security was fun! Anyway, our bank was smart and had me put on her checking account as a co-signer so I am able to write checks to cover her funeral expenses.

One difficulty has been waiting for the death certificate. We were told it would take 4-6 weeks as there was an overload of deaths. I am the executor and need this document to file for her life insurance and other financial instruments.

I would contact the bank and talk with their estate department. They will tell you how to deal with the banking accounts.

If there is minimal assets it doesn't make any sense to file probate or create a Trust. Each state has protocol for dealing with these situations, your states attorney general website is a great resource to find out what you need to do in your state.

I am so sorry for your loss. May God give you strength and wisdom during this difficult time.

Frances73, I am amazed that it takes that long to get the death certificate. Here in BC it is a week or so. A family friend just passed away.

It is unfortunate that there is so little education around the processes and procedures of death.

This is also a good example of why prepaying and planning a funeral is a great idea. When my step dad was dying just over 2 years ago I called the funeral home where he had prepaid. They pulled his file and gave me the after hours number to call.

When he died, it was in the hospital with Mum and I present. I called the number and they were there within the hour to pick him up. He did not go into the hospital morgue. The next day Mum and I met with them, then the minister and had everything organized quickly. We only had to pay for the funeral tea, the music and minister at the church.

Oh I wanted to add. Funeral homes where I live will wait for payment, they understand there may be a hold on accounts.

I'm sorry about the loss of your sister. All this "stuff" is the last thing you need at a time like this.

My parents kept one checking account out of their trust and wisely added me to it several years ago. I was able to write the checks for my dad's bills and funeral expenses out of that account.

Be warned, too, that from this point on, any checks sent to your sister (refunds from cancelled annual payments, for example) have to be made out to "The Estate of" your sister, or the bank won't honor them. I received a check refunding my dad's unused Auto Club payment, and the bank wouldn't take it. The AAA was fine with reissuing the check, but it just took that extra step I didn't really need. Oddly, I received a check for him just a couple of weeks ago, properly made out to his estate, and he died in November 2018. It was the value of unused points from a credit card he had.

End of life is a tough time for so many people, and you not only need to set up your proper paperwork like a will, POAs and an Advance Medical Directive, but ideally we should have someone we fully trust that we can put on our bank accounts before they really NEED to be on those accounts. I never wrote a check or even knew the balance on my parents' account until I took over, but thank goodness for my dad's foresight to put me on as a co-signer. He also put me on his car as a co-owner, which made it very easy for me to sell.

Thanks for your wise advice.

Sorry for your loss, my prayers are with u. Hugs. Thank u for the information.

Sorry for your loss.

When a person dies, the executor of their will must take over responsibilities.

I’m sorry for the loss of your sister. My mom’s banker advised POA (Power of Attorney) and POD (Payable on Death) to be listed on her checking account. There were no other accounts. An elder law attorney recommended the same, so as to avoid probate court. When my mom passed in November, I could write checks from her account and then the bank transferred her remaining funds to my account electronically.

PoA ends on the death of the person who granted the agency. The Executor then takes over to manage the estate. One way to simplify this is to have the agent with the PoA also be the executor. That way they can continue after a change of legal status.

I had no idea about any of this. My mom doesn't have any money except her monthly social security checks. I am not on her bank account. Funeral costs will be paid by our tribe. (We are Native American). I guess I will find someone to consult with before its too late. Thank you for the heads up and I'm so sorry for your loss. ❤

Hello OldAlto, we are all sorry for your loss. I lost my 96-year-old mother in late September and we too are going through the process of handling her estate and "learning as we go" which can be a little stressful. We often feel in the dark.

I was my mother's POA (and HCP, I might add). I am also listed as co-executor (along with my sister) of my mother's Last Will and Trust. What enabled me to pay her first bills immediately (funerary expenses, and regular expenses such as her condo fees, etc) was that she already had my name on her Bank account (a joint account even though the money was hers). When she died, I was still able to write checks on that account.

Any money that came to her after her death (checks or refunds) had to be handed over to the lawyers handling her estate where they set up a special estate bank account for the purpose of paying more bills as they came up. All paid expenses not from that account should be recorded and submitted to the legal team as those expenses are deducted from her estate tax liability (which means less estate taxes to pay). So keep good records of what you pay out after your LO dies.

My mother also had some retirement assets and mutual funds. The lawyer and her broker/financial advisor worked together to transfer all those assets to a trust account in the name of her estate (requires a different tax ID) from which I (the executor) will continue to write checks as needed for upcoming expenses as the year continues (legal fees, tax prep fees, state and federal taxes, estate taxes and condo fees until the title is transferred).

We would not know what to do in terms of estate tax returns, court filings, etc, without our lawyer. We'd be lost, frankly. I don't even know if it's possible for a non-lawyer to do it. The lawyer has to prepare the estate tax returns, file all appropriate court papers and get documentation from the court (that the bank required) for me to close her bank account (sometimes a death certificate is enough, but one special account required court papers). We will receive bills for all the legal assistance we are needing (which will be paid for out of her estate, as stated in her Last Will and Trust). We accept that resolving the legal matters around her death will be one of the major expenses that we will encounter. Whatever is left of my mother's estate will then be distributed according to her wishes.

So, yes ... so so important to get your affairs in order:
-- POA (a joint bank account is also very helpful)
-- Last Will and Trust
-- Assign executor of your will
-- Enlist the help of tax preparers and legal team (and broker, if need be)
-- Medical and health related matters (such as Health Care Proxy, Durable Health Power of Attorney, MOLST/POLST, Advance Directives, "5 wishes" ...). Have those difficult but important conversations early around your LO's wishes regarding end of life care and advance directives, then you won't be left agonizing what to do in a time of crisis where life and death choices must be made, and your LO cannot speak for him/herself.

My mother was great about covering all the bases. I am so grateful for how she planned everything, taught me how to do her taxes while she was still cognitively able to do so and got me on board with her financial management several years before she passed. She also was very direct and clear about her wishes regarding end of life care and interventions she did and did not want. When it came time to assist her in her dying process (hospice was a great support and helped my mother not suffer), I had no doubt about what she would have wanted when she was no longer able to communicate those things to me. Again, so grateful for her foresight and foreplanning!

Thank you OldAlto for the reminder to get our affairs in order. We never know what the future holds. It is a loving act towards those who survive us.

Bless you all.

My DPOA covered funeral arrangements after death. I was also on her checking acct.

That is correct - ends at death. Good point for others on this site to consider. Have more than one name on assets with asset belonging to survivor(s) at the death of one person. Just like in your situation, getting ill or sudden death can happen at any time. If you know someone that you TOTALLY trust, add their name to your accounts. You can't just add someone to a bank account without the person knowing you did it because they have to fill out a signature form for the bank, so be sure this additional signator is trustworthy.

And, get a will! When the POA ends the executor can deal with after death issues. Be specific that you want funeral/cremation or whatever paid before any other debts and distribution of what is left to heirs.

"Did your sister leave a will naming an executor?

If she did not (that is called "dying intestate") you will need to go to court to have someone appointed administrator of her estate."

****Even if one has a will, if there are non-jointly owned funds or property, one still needs to go through probate to be appointed executor/administrator.

Most of mom's funds were in a trust, being used to cover the cost of MC not covered by SS and pension, plus any other needs. THOSE we can handle without court intervention.

The deposit and interest for MC were sent in checks in HER name. The latest stimulus ($600) was sent in a check (although we used electronic filing and refunds, this one came as a check.) She will likely have a refund on the 2020 filing, to recoup what they erroneously stripped from the first stimulus. FWIW, I KNEW we would have to do probate to handle these, through an Estate account. Her main checking is okay, as 2 of us were on the account already. POA is a power of authority granted by the person, so if the person passes on, then that power goes away.

"I am surprised that the lawyer who prepared the Power of Attorney did not explain that it ended at death."

****I'm not surprised. Maybe they just ASSUME we know the details, but most of the time none of this gets explained. IMAGINE THIS: I secured an EIN online through the IRS for an estate account. I contacted the EC atty even before she passed, to get advice on how to proceed. Other than saying ensure nothing's in her name, he didn't follow up. When I asked about what court, he was still focused on MA, where mom lived when the will was done. She lived in NH for 4 years, so no, we CAN'T file in MA. HE should know that!. So, I figured out myself how to file online (courts are not allowing people in.) I have apparently the only "original" will and the DCs. These have to be mailed, so I asked if atty had a copy. He couldn't find one - seriously???? When I was ready to submit the E-file, it needed a Statement of Counsel, as the will was written out of state. I had to scan TEN pages of the will to email to him (my scanner is only one page at a time) so he could review something HE wrote up! When I asked about it, his excuse was 3 clients passed over the weekend, so he was busy!!! Dude - my mother passed almost a month ago (at that time) AND she was a client, but we don't deserve a minute? Then when he does get to filling out the one page form, he's telling me they have to call the court to find out how to submit it (and therefore charge more time.) I said NOPE, you send me the PDF and I attach it to my E-file, per online and phone instructions I already have!

Nasty mail pending for 2 bros and 1 useless atty (once paperwork is dry and all funds are distributed.) Then, move on without ANY of them.

Wow, Thank you for this information!!!

"...we too are going through the process of handling her estate and "learning as we go" which can be a little stressful. We often feel in the dark."

Mushroom here (in the dark, but learning!)

Two of us had POAs (I was the only one to ever use it, but that's a different story!) Two of us (same 2) are executors of the will. When dementia came into play, we set up an irrevocable trust to keep most of her assets and condo - life estate, which was a BAD idea! We managed to sell the condo in 2018, with ALL assets put back into the trust to cover her care (the bulk went to the 3 of us, minimal to her.)

So, as trustees, the trust is for us to deal with - no legal required. HOWEVER, the refund and interest on the deposit for MC is in my possession, as well as the last stimulus check (despite doing taxes electronic, they mailed a check.) There will likely be a refund on the final tax return, because they processed the first stimulus before/just as the 2019 taxes were done, used the 2018 return and dinged her big time! We can get the rest, but it will, along with the above, require an estate account.

The EC atty has been LESS THAN helpful. He was notified the day before and the day of her passing. NOTHING useful, if at all, provided.

I managed to get the EIN online (it was under maintenance, so I had to wait, then it was iffy for a couple of days, but I got through and got the EIN myself, right away - PRINT everything!)

The checks are NOT made out to "Estate of", so it will be interesting to see if once we have an estate account they can be deposited (as noted in another comment, that EC atty suggested I just deposit them and don't tell the bank she's passed!!! NO NO NO NO!!! A small check, maybe, just maybe, but not the amounts I am dealing with!)

I applied for E-file probate in the current state (will was another state) and he was a REAL PITA about getting the Statement of Counsel I needed. There are, at least in this state, multiple levels for estate filing, depending on the size of the estate.

Finally they have assigned a case #, but waiting for update for appointment(s) to be assigned executor before I can actually open the estate account. Two of us are named, but the court has to give blessings.

Things to note that attorneys, EVEN EC attys, don't tell you:

** Federal entities (SS, Medicare, IRS, VA, fed'l pensions) do NOT accept POA.
** POAs end at death (they are granted by the person, so they won't be valid when the person passed.)
** ANY funds not jointly owned or under a trust require probate, will or no will.
** EIN for estate can be requested online (fastest method, no legal fees!)
** E-file for probate required some of their help, but can be done by YOU
** SS rep payee isn't difficult to get (PITA about my reporting usage!)
** SS and pension funds for the month of death are denied or taken back.

WARNING! Despite SS being paid in arrears (like you work a week, then get paid next week), they DON'T pay for the month of death, whether they pass on the 1st day or the last - not a dime. IF they deposit it, they WILL come back for it, so don't spend it!

** Having funeral expenses prepaid is a boon! Thankfully mom was covered!

If I think of more, I will add them later. If any questions about what's listed, ask away! As noted, I have not been officially appointed executor/administrator of the will yet, so the account isn't opened and the checks sit here, but if there are issues with not being "to the Estate of", I'll also update. In the case of the deposit refund, most likely the facility just approved the refund and didn't make mention that mom passed (as if she moved away and got the refund), otherwise I should think the bank would know better. I did when handling my mother's cousin's estate. The final check was to her estate - the legal team in charge of the guardian for her husband said there was no estate, make it out to them. Nope. This is it, deal with it!

Yes, a Power of Attorney ends upon death. At this time a designated executor of the will takes over (I hope she had a will and named him executor). If not, the court must appoint an executor. One a person is the final executor of the will, ALL funds in the estate must be gathered up and put into an ESTATE account in the name of the deceased person. Then the executor can write checks using those funds from the estate account. That is the legal way this is handled. No one has to pay out of their pocket. The bills come out of the estate account which has all funds left at the time of death. When all are paid, it passes to the beneficiaries.

See my comments below and I wish to add one important point. I don't care how old you are, who you are, or what your situation is - you must have a VALID WILL at all times in your life. In addition you MUST OPENLY COMMUNICATE with those around you so everyone knows what is going on at all times. If you are not sure of what to do, seek counsel of an attorney - BUT EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING WHO WALKS THE FACE OF THE EARTH MUST AS A PRIORITY HAVE THEIR PERSONAL AFFAIRS IN A CURRENT AND PERFECTLY CORRECT ORGANIZED STATE AT ALL TIMES WHILE THEY ARE ALIVE. There can be no excuse NOT to do this.

Sorry for your loss.

Also sorry that those who *COULD* inform us don't. It's hard enough dealing with the loss, and then having to scramble because they didn't inform us (our atty could have been much more helpful, but I've done most of the work needed myself!!! It's not like I didn't ask...)

Read through all the responses. We aren't from Ohio, so don't know the process there, but if she had limited assets, you may be able to do the E-file for probate to be named executor/administrator. NOTE: probate required for whether there is a will or not. Easier, I would think, for a will, but still required. I'm not a legal person, but I've been able, so far, to get all this done myself. Getting the Statement of Counsel I needed (will written out of state) was a pain, but only because of that atty.

If either or both of you feel you can do this, you could proceed without legal fees (other than court fee.) I called the court first and was emailed instructions. I got through that okay, but called again about needing to submit this ASAP based on reading online that our state requires submitting the will within 30 days. She told me to submit, I could attach later. The final call was the worst (35 min on hold!), but she walked me through the steps needed to attach, but I had to wait as the case # hadn't been assigned yet! Once the # was available, piece of cake to attach!

EIN (tax ID) for estate will be needed, but you can get that online. That will be needed to set up the estate account, but you'll need to be appointed exec/admin by the court first.

Once you have been assigned exec/admin and have the EIN, you can open an Estate Account and move all remaining funds to that account and the exec/admin can access them (you can both req being named exec/admin.)

Adding to my other comments:

A will is a GOOD document to have done, by anyone at any age. If you have minor children, you'd likely want to assign guardian for them. If you have assets, you'd want to specify what is done with them, who gets what, etc. If you have a trusted person, family or not, assign them as executor of the will. I would imagine passing without a will can be a real nightmare, if there are enough assets and people crawling out of the woodwork with their hands out!

If possible, esp if getting up in years or have a terminal condition, set up the bulk of assets in an irrevocable trust. A primary account to pay regular bills would be best to have at least one additional "owner", as when the primary account holder passes, the remaining funds can be used by the secondary "owners." If naming more than one exec or trustee, perhaps best to make one the alternate. There should be one, in the event that the primary passes or doesn't want the duty. Otherwise, the courts have to name someone.

I would only recommend a Life Estate for property (house, condo, etc) IF the person has a terminal condition (yes, we are all terminal) and can remain living at the property to the end or close to it. The EC atty set up mom's condo as a Life Estate. Unfortunately, thanks to her, we couldn't keep her in the condo, so it made selling it and dealing with the distribution of funds more difficult (we put all of it into the trust, for her care.)

Regardless of whether you have a will or not, in order to be the exec/admin, it will have to go through probate. A family member's sister was named exec for her will. She lived over 1000 miles away and tried using the attorney who had written the will. He was less than efficient and very difficult to contact (he also, I discovered, was almost disbarred for using other's escrow money!!) The sister passed a year later, and it was difficult getting info from the atty. Turns out she had named me alternate exec, but neither told me. Because of the bad atty, the sister took all the Estate account money! In error, the CD that was maturing was directed to the original account and they missed it! Thankfully it was there and I could then distribute what the person had requested in the will. I was new to all this, so I hired my own atty and we had to go through probate to get me named.

Dealing with it now, mom had a will, with two of us named and wishes for distribution. However, I still need to go through the court to be officially named as exec/admin. If not for the MC refund and stimulus, this might not have been necessary. The newest stimulus (clarification: valid for anyone alive Jan 1, 2020!!), refund of the previous stimulus she didn't get but was entitled to, deposit refund, interest on that deposit, the $25 required to open the SS rep payee account, NH refund/credit on taxes due to the virus, are all going to have to go through probate.

The bulk of mom's assets were in the trust, which WE can deal with, no court or lawyers needed, unless brothers decide to be PITAS! So, I highly recommend setting up a trust if there are a lot of assets. Any money received after death will likely require probate, but if nothing anticipated, the trust becomes the beneficiaries (cap gains may apply - recommendation I got was to open a brokerage acct, where most if not all assets can move without sale, skipping cap gains, then I plan to open my own trust and transfer it all back, with minimal or no cap gains!)

I am very sorry for your loss- it’s so kind of you to warn us. Thanks. Great info

First of all, sorry for your loss. I have no answers for you and now I’m feeling triggered 😡. WHO exactly decides what happens to her money and assets if your brother who had POA is no longer allowed to pay her final expenses with her money? The state? The county? Is there possibly another relative or friend who may have convinced her to sign something that nullified your authority after death so that they would get access to the assets? This doesn’t sound right at all. Are the state and going to make sure her expenses are paid, or are they going to waste it on other nonsensical crap and leave you with the bill? By the way thanks for this warning.

WilliMartin, if there is a will, then if there is a named executor, they go to the court and officially become appointed to handle the estate (assets, bank account, real property). If they don’t want to be executor, then anyone can step up and ask the court to make them executor. If there is no will then *someone* will have to go to the court and petition to be executor/administrator of the estate. Otherwise everything just sits and would eventually be turned over to the state as “unclaimed property”.

WilliMartin - a POA ends at death because the person you are supposed to be acting in their best interests has ceased to exist. The executor they named takes over and there is a court process to get an executor appointed if no one was named in the will. You will get good advice from various posters, but my take is be prepared with at least some knowledge beforehand of the legal process if you are caring for an elder.