It’s been a few years since I’ve been on. My mother had lived with me in my state. She had got me to the point that I considered ending my life because of all the constant misery. I quit my job for 3 months and moved her up north near my brother. She eventually hated where she moved and had confrontation with the person running the place. My brother has a very demanding job that doesn’t give him much time to spend hrs at a doctors appointment. He moved her to a assisted living facility that is brand new. It has lots of people… Drs, nurses, 3 meals, physical therapy everything she needs so he doesn’t have to worry when he is out of town. I have recently learned that she has early symptoms of dementia… that she says is not true. My brother has done backward flips to get this completed. Everyday I talk to her she just continues to put him down and complains about what he is not doing. She always wants me to take her side to where it becomes an argument. She also lives negatively constantly living in the past and all the wrong doings to her. No one in the family likes to call her or visit because she causes conflict. There is just so much more to this story. My brother was supposed to visit her today and take her to eat. That didn’t happen because she called him a traitor and he didn’t love her and that she was going to move and she has only been in her new apartment for a month. This event was caused by him mistaking that she could get her pain medication thru the doctors at the facility and not return to the pain Dr. He wanted to simplify and make sure she always had access to her meds in case he was out of town for work. I was the bad horrible person when she lived with me and now since she has lived close to him he is now the bad guy. She loves her children… but she claims she can say and do whatever she wants to her kids because she is the mom. Today I had to tell her I love her and hang up on her. The conversation was leading to an argument. I am exhausted mentally from listening to all the negativity that I listen to for hrs each day on the phone. I love her but she is never happy. I don’t know what to do for her
My mother decided around the 99th year of her life that “she never had children”. She casually mentioned this to me during my daily visit to her memory unit. Anther time she thoughtfully said “I guess I wasn’t a good mother” I said, “you did your best” while I mentally thought “not every one was cut out to be nurturing”.
Later while thinking of her statement, I believe she was manipulating a response from me that would give her the chance to say “why am I here if I have children who could take care of me? Always the negotiator to achieve her goal. Miss her strength. She was the original “tough cookie”.
your situation sounds exactly the same as mine.
I will now think of her as a patient! Thank you! I found this very helpful!
So when I came back home per my brother's request, to help take care of Mom, unbeknownst to us, she had very mild dementia. She would say something bad about someone, then deny every saying it. She would be overly critical of anyone who was not in the room.
One day, I couldn't take it anymore. When she was not being overly critical, I told her that I did not want to hear anymore about anyone bad faults. If she thought they were bad, then she needs to tell them (and of course I knew she would not do it since what she accused them of was not necessarily accurate).
So when she was getting to my breaking point, I would say "Mom, if you say anything more negative or grumble about this person, I'm leaving". At first, it was enough for her to stop as I changed the topic of the conversation. However, eventually, she didn't care so she continued. So, I made good on the threat, I just picked up my stuff and said "Mom, I'm leaving." She asked why and I said "because I said I was leaving if you continued your negative attitude" She said "I don't see what is so negative, it's just the truth." I said "bye" and left.
When I saw her again, she asked again why I left, I told her why and she said "what was I saying?" I told her that I really didn't know however, it was negative, and I didn't like listening so I left.
When her dementia got worse, the negativity started back up. Now I couldn't leave the premises. So I told her that she was in timeout for 3 minutes and I put headphones on my ears (not ear buds; it had to be visible). After 3 minutes, I'd go and see what was going on and life was good.
Although some people believe you cannot teach new behavior to dementia patients, I do not completely agree. I have seen time and time again, where people with dementia are taught new behaviors. It takes a lot of practice and even more repetition, however, certain new behaviors can be learned.
She no longer criticizes people for more than 2 sentences. I don't know if that is because she cannot remember everything that a person has done, or because she no longer has the capacity to make up those half truths.
Either way, she is so much nicer to be around now.
So for you, I would warn your Mom with what you are going to do, change the conversation, and if she comes back to that negative conversation, then carry out and do what you told her you were going to do.
((HUGS))...and good luck on the journey.
But we too have to change. We have to be different teachers. It's a very specific energy. When it's dialed in there's a chance of moving mountains. You've seen the video -- crazy snapping dogs who everyone gives up on -- then a dog whisperer shows up and that dog turns into Lassie. I truly believe that works on all living things. We just have to crack the code.
We give the same advice and they will continue to talk to their family members as if something will change.
Sadly, in most cases nothing changes. The solution is to find placement and stop being the hands on caregiver.
I don’t place much stock in a scripted reality tv show. There’s a ton of crap that is never going to be shown on the program. They are going to show what gets them high ratings.
My apologies but I really don't understand the word salad you're serving me here.
If someone's soul is "hungry" then I suppose they should take that up with their clergy. If they don't have any, then they should probably get some.
I know what it's like to have grown up with a negative and abusive bully. I know what it's like to have to be a caregiver to this kind of person too. It's one thing for a person to be needy. Fine. People get sick, they get old, they need help. There is such a thing as abusive neediness though.
Also dealing with an unruly child is very different than dealing with a miserable, negative, instigating, gaslighting adult who has weaponized their own neediness and uses it to manipulate the people they're dependent on who actually do for them and help.
I agree with you on the stepping away part and I'll go even further.
Step away and keep on walking. Never become a care martyr because it will ruin your life and the lives of everyone who loves you.
Some people are beyond teaching. You can talk until you are blue in the face and nothing will ever change.
Then it’s time to stop investing all of your time and energy into the relationship, cut your losses and exit. It’s futile to stay because it doesn’t serve any purpose for them or yourself.
"They don't know how to have that kind if interaction and need to be taught".
I'm guessing that you're refering to the elderly and negativity.
You can't teach an old dog new tricks.
When people have become set in their ways, they stay that way.
I'm sure you've heard the eternally famous line from Dr. Sigmund Freud when he said, 'Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar'.
It's also true. I find that most negative people are not aching for firm, positive, loving guidance. They are aching for a fight. There are actual people who enjoy fighting. They feed off of discord and anger. They like trouble-making and turning people against each other.
They don't want guidance and a 'firm hand'. They want someone they can abuse or they want others to join them in their misery. Misery loves company after all.
When it's a case of an elder, well complaining is a form of entertainment and sport with the elderly. They want an audience not a guide.
It is totally a control thing and a manipulation thing too. If you moved your mother to the different AL she would do exactly the same thing. If you moved her into Buckingham Palace and put the full Royal Household Staff at her service it would be the same story. My mother is just the same.
You're doing the right thing taking a step back. Don't jump through hoops because it will make no difference.
One thing that you, your brother, and your sister should do is keep that AL she's in on their toes a little bit. It's not cheap to live in an AL place and people paying for it have a right to demand that they get value for their money.
Your mother's apartment should be very clean. Her meals should be good quality, and her clothes should be washed properly. These are things all of you should insist on.
You don't have to call so much. You don't have to stay on the line with her. You can't change her, but you can change how you react.
Next time you call and she starts badmouthing someone tell her you don't want to listen to that and you will end the call if she can't be nice. Then do it. And do that every time you call. And every time you have to hang up on her space out your next phone call. If you called every day, now it is every other day, then every third day. If there is an emergency, the facility will call you. You don't have to answer her calls every time. That is why you pay so much for her to be there, there is someone who can deal with whatever issue is at hand.
You have received great feedback! One more thing. Focus on valuing yourself and the rest will fall into place automatically.
Repeat after me,
I don’t need this crap in my life! Today I will ignore her and do something nice for myself.
Or find another mantra to express your feelings about no longer being willing to listen to her unending negativity.
Say it to yourself until it sinks in!
You say you love her. Dismiss her negativity in a positive way. Ok,mother, It's nice talking to you, I must go now. Have a good day. Goodbye
BUT...the truth is, no matter how sweetly you respond, all that negativity WILL affect you. really.
even the most positive, most bubbly, most i-don't-care-what-people-say/think/do person, WILL be affected.
that's why it's even studied in war :(.
psychological warfare. it works.
destroy morale (their confidence/enthusiasm/discipline).
one doesn't even need to study psychological warfare to know how to do it. mean people know the tricks. i even knew a man (whose father was toxic/mean), who read all the books he could on verbal abuse, IN ORDER for him to do it himself "more efficiently".
my point is, it works.
it'll get OP down, and anyone, who is in contact with toxic people.
it really has little to do with how you respond.
NO ONE can genuinely be happy while they're being thrown garbage/complaints/negativity at.
here's a hug to everyone surrounded by silly, mean people.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on being puzzled about why people use anger and hostility to get the love that they feel they deserve. It always backfires on them.
It’s their way of attempting to manipulate others. They are too foolish to realize that their tactics aren’t effective.
Here’s the thing. She doesn’t know that she doesn’t know. She probably thinks that she knows everything about everything!
Honestly, there are certain people in our lives where it is a complete waste of time to try and educate them.
So, don’t waste your time and energy on trying to change your mom’s perspective on things.
Don’t try to get her to see that your feelings matter equally to hers. She feels like she is the top dog! She sees others as being beneath her.
In other words, don’t try to compete with her. This isn’t an argument that you will win. She isn’t rational enough to have an intelligent debate with you.
Don’t blame yourself for her ignorance. It’s not that you aren’t communicating your message properly. She isn’t able to comprehend what you’re saying.
You can either:
Nod and say yes, even if you don’t mean it.
You can completely ignore her.
You can waste your time trying to educate her.
You can drive yourself crazy by arguing with her.
Take your pick. I would go with ignoring her and living your life in peace.
I keep reminding my hubby to choose the "nod and smile" method of dealing with his elderly mom with dementia. She complains or tells him untrue things and he tends to take the bait and correct her, etc. I'll keep reminding him, with love, NOT to do that. Meet her where she is, just say "oh really?" and leave it be! She's not going to remember what he told her anyways but why not have the interaction be positive (or at least neutral) instead of so negative? She often gets mad and hangs up on him when he doesn't say the "right" thing. This is newish behavior and definitely dementia driven.
Your story really speaks to me. The way you describe your mother and that you considered ending your own life because of the constant misery is like reading my own story.
You and your brother did the right thing. You by hanging up on her and your brother by cancelling the his plans to take her out to eat. Both of you will have to for your own individual sanity go 'Grey Rock' on her or make your contact with her non-existent.
You say your mother loves her children. How did she treat you and your brother when you were children?
I've heard many people tell me how much my mother loved her children too. Any time someone tries to tell me that the bullying, scapegoating, gaslighting, berating, belittling, and guilt-tripping is love gets told otherwise by me.
You and your brother have to give mom a different kind of love now. Tough love.
If she cannot refrain from villifying one sibling to the other, and put the brakes on the constant misery spreading and negativity every moment, ignore her. Pay her no attention whatsoever. No phone calls, no visits, no contact at all. Check up on her through the staff at the AL. Then only if you both want to, start talking to her again.
The second she starts, the communication ends. She needs to learn that she will lose her family if her abusive (yes it is abusive) behavior continues.
This is what I had to do and I've been living in the same house with my mother for several years now. I have gone months at a time without even speaking to my mother. She was on her best behavior when homecare started a few weeks ago because she thinks she's moving with me next month. Not happening so her old behaviors have resumed. Not my problem. Not yours either.
Your mother is safe and being looked after in AL. It's safe for you and your brother to ignore her if you need to.
It's the only way to preserve your own sanity. Good luck.
Your mother is taken care of. Be thankful for that. Let her be her and you be you. You’re not going to change her so don’t even try. Don’t speak to her so often.
Some people are miserable. I don’t even say that I would like to see them happy anymore because there are people who enjoy being miserable.
I know someone who thrives on hearing bad news and telling others her bad news. I rarely speak to her anymore because she is too damn depressing to be around.
At one point in time I tried to encourage this woman that I know. When I discovered that she truly didn’t want any solution to her problems I dropped out of sight. Why should I frustrate myself so she can use me to dump her crap on.
When I told her that I will listen to her crap, but I will charge $150 an hour for being a therapist for her, she shut up fast.
The woman you know sounds exactly like my mother.
I am SO GLAD that you finally moved her out and away.
Your final sentence is that you "don't know what to do for her."
My answer? Do LESS than you already are doing for her. Why do you have to talk to her every day?
If she starts just say "I don't want to listen to this negativity, bye" and hang up.
What could you possibly have to say to her everyday, all you are doing is rehashing the same stuff over and over again.
The ball is in your court it is up to you to free yourself from her toxic behavior. She is not expressing love, she is expressing control.
Good for your brother, he sounds like he is getting it and is standing up for himself.
Ironically over 30 plus years ago my grandmother did the same thing to my mom and her brother (my uncle). First she lived with son and complained to my mom about how terrible he was.
Then mom moved her in with us and she still complained.
She lived with us for 20 years because my parents felt too guilty to move get into assisted living.
Tok bad they didnt have this forum back then it might have made a world of difference for my parents and grandmother.
Your poor parents and you. I can't imagine living with that for 20 years. Hell on earth for all of you.
"she is never happy"
some people looove being negative: THAT is what makes them happy.
some years ago, i had an acquaintance. he was constantly negative, constantly complaining about other people (the complaints weren't about me); every day. i tried my best to let him see the brighter side of things. i thought i could maybe lift him up. it took me a while to realize that he looooved being negative. THAT's what brought him joy. by the way, such people need an audience. he loooved dumping all the complaints/garbage on me.
what ends up happening after every negative conversation OP, is that they feel lighter, you feel heavier.
The complaints were not about you when you were in his company. I'd bet my last dollar the minute your time together or phone call ended, the complaints and negativity became about you too.
People like your acquaintance are usually always a victim in some way or another.
Can you separate this out?
Part 1. "I love her.."
Part 2. "..but she is never happy".
Part 1 is YOU. You can tell her you love her. Or send flowers, a card, little gifts. Whatever suits your style.
Part 2. is MOM. The ability for Mom to feel happiness (or misery, or anger etc) resides within HER. Her feelings are hers to ffeel. They may be intense at times. That's OK, that's how she is made.
You don't cause them, no-one else causes them. They come from Mom. They are hers.
It takes practice, but try to pause & just HEAR Mom talk about her feelings. Resist any urge to fix or change them.
"I hear you saying you feel sad (or angry etc) today".
Have you ever talked to a therapist about this? About how to show your Mom love but also protect yourself at the same time?
Many may advice you to call less (I agree) or even cut contact altogether. Maybe you want to call less? But if not, finding a way to communicate that protects yourself more will hopefully help you.
Best wishes.
The listening to mom's "feelings" will not help anything. The OP's mother doesn't talk about her feelings in terms of being sad, anxious, scared, lonely, etc... No.
She villifies. She instigates.
She is ALWAYS the victim that everyone else is out to get. If no one is currently persecuting her in some way she will rehash old grudges or invent new ones.
There's no listening to that. The only thing listening to that miserable nonsense will achieve is to bring down the listenener. Misery loves company after all.
Therapy told me to cut all contact with my mother if possible. This was years ago. I don't do that because I ignore her when needs be.
Was Mom ever really very different?
In my experience as a nurse, just watching from a position of interest, it seemed to me that people pretty much ended their lives as they lived their lives.
I think that the problem with children who have been raised by, and have lived with demanding, unhappy, dissatisfied parents, is that they keep trying, they keep hoping.
Some of them GRIEVE their parents more than people like me who had just about the best parents in the world. I have pondered this a whole lot. And I think the problem is that, when these poor unhappy souls pass from this life their children lose that one last hope they have clung onto for so many years--that hope that they will FINALLY hear from the parent:
"I love you.
I thank you for all you have done for me; I am sorry for the moments I failed you".
It's what every child needs. What so few get. Our parents are humans. Would that I was as good a parent as my mom. Would that they all were.
Your Mom's got limitation. She can't measure up to YOUR expectations just as you don't feel you can to hers.
Search out the peace of it in these last times. You ALREADY know all this. You SAID it. You said "she loves her kids, but...." She did the best she could with what she had.
You may never know all the "whys" of that. You really don't need to.
This end of life stuff with loss upon loss is tough for your Mom, and it's tough for you, too. Do the best you can. And accept that you BOTH are doing the best you can in so far as you are able. When she's test some day shock her with "Yes.....but you know what? I love you. And I know you love me, too". And then watch her face.
My best to you.
I wish I could like this comment a thousand times. You're spot on.