Offering room with all included isn't part of the payment for care?

What does your husband say about it? It's HIS mother, after all. Also, whose funds are being used to take care of MIL? (Hope it's not yours!!!)

Ok Dorianne, so you did read
- that you assumed I didn't want to pay a salary - which I never said - and from there you went on calling me cheap?
- that I pay above average for the CG I hired?
- That the live in caregiver was a scammer?
- That the woman who conned her was paid MW for a couple of hours a day?

1) My questions:
a) shouldn't the house expenses be counted as salary + MW?
b) is 2xMW reasonable? I think not
I give an EXAMPLE: "Let's say someone earns 1300 a month" - it's an example, won't apply by the number to every country, so multiply MWx2

2 - I paid all the CG I've hired what you say it's fair and more. But since you can't think universally, I explain again in USD how much the agency charges me for one hour service, how much above the average that is, and how much THEY pay the ladies: they charge me $15/h, when a CG asks for $10 and the agency - NOT ME - pays them $6.
SO I PAY MORE THAN AVERAGE, they only clean superficially, they never stay the whole hour, and someone stole jewels, but I don't tell the agency about their job because I don't care, just as long as the basic is done, which it is, and because I know how shitty they're being paid BY THE AGENCY, THE AGENCY not by ME

3) The Live In I hired wasn't underpaid, she just wasn't looking for a job, but for a house - she said this to me. She's a scammer looking for someone to support her. She offered her services as a CAREGIVER, so I thought she was willing to take care of an elder. But she wanted someone who couldn't move, think or talk or was out all day in a care center, so she could have the whole house and day for herself. She said this to me later!!
She came and asked me half MW+housing. I offered her the double+housing, she only had to take care of MIL's hygiene and AS ANY LIVE IN - HAD TO LIVE IN - so if I needed to go out, she should be here, if we came from the doctor she should be here, the rest of the day, I couldn't care less, she could go out, and OH she did, I did the shopping, cleaning, cooking and taking MIL out. She didn't have to be here while I was, but it wasn't suppose to be out all day, that's why I paid her the house bills so she LIVED IN.
She was a scammer. That's why she left.

4) The lady who conned her was making a MW to come 2 hours a day, plus vacations = MW/month, and all the extras were paid: gas, parking tickets, AND she ate here, my MIL went out to have lunch with her offered by MIL...so no, it's not cheap.

This is your answer:
- that I didn't want to pay a salary - I never said that, but you make it your main point
- the market decides - ok, so it's not the effort
- house consumption should not be applied because in other jobs that doesn't happen - yes, but in other jobs people don't take showers, eat for free and wash their laundry
- but "can consider room and board PART of their wage, but certainly not their whole wage" - so YES, IT CAN be counted and AGAIN I never said I wasn't paying a salary too.
- "a lawyer would certainly be able to sue an employer on an employee's behalf if they were only paid in room and board" - Again you insist that I only wanted to pay for room and board, when I never said that.
-You take the example of 1300 as a rule - I said it's an example just multiply MW by 2 which will apply to any country
- "don't make the assumption that an employee doesn't have other expenses" - I didn't, but for some reason you and then Meallen insist that I said I wouldn't pay her more than room and board and I dictate what her expenses are...

After your answer on false assumptions about what I said - that I didn't want to pay a salary - , four other people followed your wrong lead saying "1300 isn't enough", that I was cheap, how is it going for me?, etc etc which is not an answer to any of my questions, just adjectives.

Then to justify the 2xMW+house bills many claimed that the CG has a very hard personal life, a family, another job, school, etc, as if it was different for everyone else in the world who makes only MW and also has to pay for their house+bills, or a nanny. They too have hard lives, they to have expenses.

The availability had a price. Right, it's true. So I went to look for other Live-In jobs and found the nannies: a live in makes less than a live out (wonder why?), although a live in has to be available 24/7. Is it because they already paid her the housing??? And benefits are included?

Not everyone disagrees: Some said it depends, even you said room and board could be counted, and for nannies that does apply for years, but now nannies don't matter, it's not the same, they don't have the same life and same effort as CGs - they take care of cute little babies how awesome! -, so we can all devalue the nanny's job and life but never question the CG's job and life; we can devalue any MW worker but never a CG.

then, the same way many don't have any problem devaluing the MW worker or the live in nannies, they can accept that institutions do ask more than they should, but again everything in the world is questionable, except the CG's job. It's the market, so it's not the fairness.
I don't want to devalue people's work, but comparing to a nanny who has the same responsibilities and expected availability there's a difference in salary and rules. It's not because babies are cute! They are cute for some people, and "cranky smelly people" to other.

You know what? I had this whole long reply written, and then I went back and re-read some of what you wrote, and I decided it's not worth it.

You started with one situation and evolved it into a whole different scenario, and ranted at anyone who had commented before you provided the pieces of information they might have needed earlier.

You just seem to want to rant and be angry at people.

You seem to need to be "right" regardless of whether you are.

You don't seem all that interested in the opinions of, well, pretty much everyone who disagrees with you or who puts a greater value on caregiving than you do.

In fact, you seem to just want to justify what you plan to do to future employees and get support for that.

I wonder why you've had trouble with employees so far. 

So I'm done. I wish you luck.

"Say that to nannies then. They, like everyone here told me, will tell you why their job isn't easier and that you're being unfair and all the things I read."

The point is, you can't compare the salary of elderly caregiving to nanny jobs. As you pointed out, they are very different jobs. I'm not unfair to you. I'm only pointing out that the MARKET determines what the going rate is for each job.

This isn't a 'shift' that ends after 8 hours - if you're living there, you're always on call. That's the point of a 'live-in' employee. I don't think they'll have enough time to take a bunch of 1-hour showers, based on the scenarios I've read elsewhere in this forum. Would you be willing to do the work at less than $45/day for a complete stranger instead of a family member? Plus, there are expenses besides food and board. Medical bills, credit card debt, car payments, saving money for retirement... and for when the job comes to an end and they have to start over.

At first I though you were just ranting about dare people demand so much, but now I am starting to think you are very frustrated and unhappy. Perhaps you can't afford or provided the care you want for your mother-in-law. I am new here, and don't have many answers. However, if you can reframe your question to specifics, I expect there are people who can help you.

Say that to nannies then. They, like everyone here told me, will tell you why their job isn't easier and that you're being unfair and all the things I read. How mean and cheap I was, and all. Also, wasn't availability the criteria to be paid more? Is a nanny less available then a CG? Well, my MIL can walk, a cute little baby can't. My MIL can express through words, a cute little baby can't. My MIL doesn't cry and yell relentlessly when something aches, my MIL can be cute and her diapers only smell like urine not rotten jar food. Also a nanny doesn't only take care of babies, there's nasty brats too. And she could be studying or taking care of her family instead of being there available, and she needs food too, and maybe she has babies at home, what if she lives there but has family elsewhere? etc etc etc.

"I can ask for 20 000 000 000 to clean your bathroom, is it normal?"

What someone asks is irrelevant. What the market will bear is the answer. Isn't that how you are paid for your job? If you ask 20 million, your employer will find someone else?

And you can't compare to Nanny salaries. If I were offered the same salary for a Nanny job or old person caregiving, I'd pick the nanny job every time for the same salary. Cute little babies versus cranky, smelly old people. It's not comparable.

Indeed. And it's more because of the market then the real work needed. The market knows there's few alternatives.

I'm sorry you're so frustrated, there really are no easy answers. Decent facilities are not always available. Home care is often unreliable and costs more than many can afford. Even those of us who choose to care for someone out of love are often overburdened financially, physically and emotionally. Our elders are living longer and with greater physical and cognitive difficulties than ever before. I wish things were easier, but unfortunately they aren't :(

Oh, Meallen...there's too many competition so they do whatever they want, but I only work some days of the week :)

oh, oh...oh my god!
www.sittercity.com/parents/find-child-care/how-much-should-you-pay-your-sitter-or-nanny

"Nanny wages can differ based on a number of factors including: years of experience, education level, and employment status (full-time live in/live out). According to the 2015 INA Nanny Salary & Benefits Survey, the average hourly rate is $18.66 USD per hour.

The average weekly salary for full-time live-out nannies is $705 per week.
The average weekly salary for full-time live-in nannies is $652 per week.

*Average weekly salary based on 2012 INA Survey

Additional considerations, such as whether a nanny is provided employment benefits like paid time off, health insurance, gas money, and cellphones, will influence base wages."

BENEFITS ARE PART OF THE SALARY; LIVE-INS MAKE LESS THAN LIVE OUTS?
Caregivers? Oh no! Different rules! it's whatever the hell they ask for no matter what and damn that who dares to question that!

How can they pay you less than MW?

I'm a journalist working in the broadcast industry

FOR GOD'S SAKE! DID I SAY WHERE SHE SHOULD SPEND HER MONEY???
I'M SAYING SHE HAS 2XMW TO SPEND IN WHAT A FREAK SHE WANTS CONTRARY TO THE REST OF THE WORKERS WHO ALSO HAVE TO PAY FOR HOUSEHOLD BILLS!

I assume that if your salary is less than MW, you are a server and expected to make up the difference in tips. In that, you have my sympathy. I think it's a rotten system.

But you can't dictate what other people spend their money on or assume what their lives are like. You condensed to give what you thought was a good deal for one of those people, and they didn't agree, you you came here for validation. You bet I'm judging you.

Dorianne:
1) "Paying less than minimum wage for the time an employee is expected to be working (including "being around") is illegal and you can be sued for that as well."
Did I say "less"? No, I said I paid her the MW plus house+bills+time off...I said: asking twice that amount is a lot because it's not including a free house+house expenses

2) About all the expenses and how I can't count them as part of the salary,
Then, it's ok to pay the caregiver twice the minimum wage or more BUT charge for the room, the consumption of electricity, water, food, internet and washing machine use, that way it's "her choice", then, like any other worker in the world, she can use her 50000 to do whatever she wants - which is none of my business, right? Actually, where I live these things can be counted has part of the salary. I can add goods and benefits has part of the salary

2.1) Meallen: "their wages don't just go on basic person expenses. They can be taking courses; supporting children, or their own elderly parents"
That's the same for everyone else in the world - salary, no matter what amount, goes for some or all of that - I call it PERSONAL expenses. The ladies who make 4-taxes when the agency charges me 9,5 do have families to take care of, bills to pay, children or elderly parents to support. Does the agency care? No. So what, it's the market right? The agency has the right to pay them that, after all, it manages their work, right? WRONG. But the agency is bad, I'm bad, the caregiver who asks for 2xMW + all house expenses paid is being fair.

3) I don't want HER to pay for MY household expenses. I pay for mine and hers, but if I pay hers it should count has part of the salary. If a company pays your food and cell phone that counts as Salary. "you make MW plus have credit card and company's cell phone and free food" - would you take it? Sounds more appealing than just MW, because it's a bit more, right?

4) "it's also illegal (not to mention pretty unethical) to practice discriminatory hiring practices based on family status (i.e.: marriage, children), and you can be sued for that as well."
Right, so if she's married and has another job it's her problem, not mine and no one needs to post how I'm mean for not caring for her family needs...It's her choice it's her problem, right? Ok. In that case, I don't care if she has family or any needs. She comes and does the job (lives in my house all day? Fine...)

5) Just because people ask for a certain amount of money and that's the market value, doesn't mean it can't be questioned or that it's reasonable. I can ask for 20 000 000 000 to clean your bathroom, is it normal? Fair? I think 2xMW+Free house expenses is much more than what any other worker with the same amount of work and also family to take care of and bills to pay actually earn. I think asking for twice the MW without counting the fact that they have a free house and free food is not fair. If a regular worker who earns that, in the end of the month has only 1/3 of that, why should they have 3/3 if they both worked the same amount of time and worked just as hard? I don't understand. In that case, all jobs are underpaid, which is true. A salary is a way for us to pay for our bills and have a nice life. The live-in has 2/3 of those bills already paid off.
You say it's fair, I say it's not. MW and house paid+expenses is more than the average salary, since in the end you have it all for yourself (I don't care for what, that's not the point or my business and never said it was for hairdressers and other stuff) .
I question the price of housing, even if the market says being high is fine, I question why a manager should get more money than the guy screwing the screws all day, I question things. I don't just give what people ask without thinking. We've been conned, stolen, taken advantage of and a job not done many times by people who charged well for coming. 2xMW isn't synonym of quality or safety. It's just the market value.

Cwillie: what are ALL my expectations? If I shop, cook for both MIL and CG, clean the house, and all the CG has to do is what the home support does? In fact, right now, that's what I'm doing. If I have to pay MW, then I pay the agency MW, they come in the morning and night and I don't spend more with food, power, water, heat...so that's the value of the live-in I asked for? - just MW, but I paid more so she could be here when I needed to go out to shop. As I said, she could go out, but not as she did: she was ALWAYS out, that's not a live in, that's a never in.

jeannegibbs: I posted it here because I wanted to know your opinion, but I don't think many people are reading before answering or many are very focused on judging.
i.e. a) I never said LESS than MW; b) I said 1300 is an example; c) my question is not if they shouldn't get paid or paid almost nothing, is if house bills shouldn't be taken in consideration when asking for a salary that's twice what the majority of people earn and no one cares if they have families or bills to pay

Few answered specifically to that, some said it depended on the tasks and requirements, but the majority answers to things I didn't say. I get it, the majority thinks it's reasonable and right to pay 2xMW+Consumption bills.

Yes, jjariz. I've learned that lesson. She was waving big red flags and I stupidly fell for it.

cwillie: I'm living with my MIL because we're looking to provide her a good life. I don't have any obligation of doing it, I don't get paid, I have a job, and she was really in bad shape when I met her - she couldn't move at all. I did all by myself. I'm again alone with her, available 24/7. They wanted to pay me and I said I don't need, she pays for everything so it's fine. My salary (that one is LESS than MW and I work in a much lucrative industry) is enough since I don't need to pay for anything. I'm looking for a home care facility that doesn't smell like piss, and where people won't be standing in chairs all freaking day long watching the same freaking stupid tv channel. That's a death calling but for 2xMW that's what she gets -fair? As I said, 2xMW is a lot where I live. Not many people earn that. I want the best for her, though she's not my direct family and she's nasty, we're getting along better now, I know what taking care of a numbed body with a bad attitude is like, I know how better she is now and I know what I'm asking for and I'm still here to do part of the work...so 2xMW for that is actually a lot. It's the double of what I'm paying to get the same result.

IMO managing other people sucks, the stress involved just isn't something that would be worth it to me. The smaller the "business" the more difficult it can be because you can't count on the good employees to cover for the bad ones, being a boss/landlord all rolled into one has to be the ultimate crap-shoot, chances are very low that you will find someone who satisfies all your expectations. Maybe you would be better off to hire several independent caregivers to cover various shifts, that way one may excel in areas where another is lacking and overall you will have a better level of care, as well as back up if one isn't working out... generally an independent worker is happy to get an amount somewhere in between what an agency charges the client and what the agency would pay them, so everybody wins. Unwillingness to place a loved one in a facility and/or an inability to afford 24/7 caregivers is the reason so many on the forum have a loved one living with them, that is another option to consider.

You know, if I'd had bad experiences, I'd want to pay MORE for a better level of care.

Being expected to "be around" means the person is working and you have to pay them for that time. It doesn't matter what tasks you expect of them - it's about the availability you expect of them. That is the law. You can be sued for demanding availability and not paying for it.

Another example of people who get paid for being available on site, regardless of whether they are performing tasks or reading romance novels, are nannies and babysitters.

Paying less than minimum wage for the time an employee is expected to be working (including "being around") is illegal and you can be sued for that as well.

And again, you can't just make assumptions that a person has no other expenses, or minimal expenses, just because you are providing food and a place to stay. Those are definitely not the only expenses in my life. It's not your place as an employer to determine what an employee's personal expenses are or should be.

If you are valuing room and board as a percentage of wages, well, my current rent (which includes heat and water) for my 2-bedroom, private apartment (including my own private bathroom and kitchen, as well as control of my own thermostat and A/C), plus my electricity, totals about 45% of my take home pay. This doesn't include my food.  I'm not earning much above minimum wage, either. 

Government policy for expensing housing costs (not including food) as a percentage of income is usually 30%. 

I feel like you also need to separate out your role as a landlord from your role as an employer.

You CANNOT count things like television and internet as part of an employee's wages. They're nice perks, but if they had their own home, they could choose NOT to have those things. For example, I don't have a television, by choice. I could access the internet on my phone and at the public library if I couldn't afford it at home. (Edited to add:  ditto "clean laundry" - I did all my laundry in the kitchen sink for years, when I was too broke to pay the coin washers in my building.)  You are not giving them a choice, but instead, are insisting these perks be counted as part of their wages just because you've made them available. That's illegal and you can be sued for it.

You CANNOT count heat, electricity and water as part of an employee's wages. It's an employer's legal responsibility to provide a safe, non-hazardous working environment above and beyond wages.

Look at it this way: in any other employment situation, those expenses are considered part of the cost of doing business, above and beyond employee wages. In a home, they are part of the cost of running a home, period, regardless of whether one has employees. You wouldn't NOT have heat, electricity and water if you didn't have an employee. You can't just reduce an employee's wage or charge them extra in order to pay for your household expenses. Again, that's illegal and you can be sued for it.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with a couple of people. That's not reflective of my experience with caregivers, but there are bad people in every profession, from fry cooks to firefighters. I've worked for minimum wage and I've worked for $25 an hour, and I had just as many terrible or lazy co-workers at the higher wage as I did at the minimum wage. Setting workplace rules, assigning tasks, and disciplining or firing bad workers is the job of management.

Edited to add:  it's also illegal (not to mention pretty unethical) to practice discriminatory hiring practices based on family status (i.e.: marriage, children), and you can be sued for that as well.

Also edited to add:  it doesn't matter if you think your situation as an employer is unique or special or different.  It doesn't make you above the law.  And no, your situation is not unique or special or different. And yup, I care a lot about the people who get paid to make my food - I don't get to demand they make less than what the law requires just because I can't personally afford their bread.  I just eat less bread or I get a second job to buy it.  If you want to change the free market system, then you need to become an activist or a politician, not pay workers less. 

carenightmare, I'm trying to figure out why you posted. You have your mind made up. No matter what anyone says you are not budging. That is perfectly acceptable. But, why did you post here?

Actually, I do. But then I am a futile. person.

I'm not a futile person so I don't go to the hairdresser or drink expensive coffees.
I work hard too to have money and pay for my stuff, and I do value people's work, but paying for a house+bills+replacement+at least minimum wage should be good enough for the job - I did it too, I know how hard it is. But it's a MW (whatever the value in each country) to spend in whatever they want. It's not a MW to pay the rent, bills and food, like everyone does out there. It's MW+(Free House+Free meals+free internet+free power+free communications+free heat+free cleaned laundry)+time to spend it = MW+2/3MW (the amount spent by any worker with housing bills and food)

It's not like she has a beeper and needs to stay awaken all night and work 24/7 non-stop.
It's a place to live and yes, keep an eye on things and yes help around. Help. Not slavery.

I see that in this caregiving industry there's a particularity: the lack of alternatives allows anyone to ask for any amount of money they wish to do the job; because many have dementia many steal from them because "they won't know" and if they say something just say they're confused; because many are isolated many con them, and because they surely get money at the end of the month, many think it's ok to take it all, since they didn't work to get it, so again, we can charge them whatever we want, if it's all they have, so be it.

I would never hire a live in who has a family to take care of or another job. That's impossible. By live-in I mean to live in the house and work, not to come to the house. 

And let me tell you about the agency and the fairness and the market: Where I live people ask 7 per hour to do this job, the agency charges me 9,5 and pays them 4!! and they have to pay their own taxes. So let's talk about fairness and competition.
The lady who's coming now through the agency comes early in the morning and late at night. I'm paying the agency for 2 hours a day, but I'm not insensitive, and I don't ask her more than the hygiene at night, so she can leave and go to rest. I know she doesn't deep clean and I'm OK with that. I won't tell the agency she doesn't stay all the hour I'm paying for and I know how unfair these women are treated by the company.

I'm not mean or cheap. I pay. I pay MW a bit more+Their house bills + offer a place to live and time to enjoy their money.
If it makes you cringe when I say I pay but just enough, it makes me cringe when you say "market", "competition", and other corporate language when we're talking about basic needs.

Being old is part of life. And being disabled is part of being old. We ALL will need this care, ALL, like we need food. I bet you don't talk about fairness and market value when they raise the price of bread or any food for amounts you or the majority of the people can't afford, do you? Do you care about the hours the baker spent working? The price of gas for transportation? The price of flower and the work of all the middlemen? No! Food is essential to live and so it can't cost more than we can afford.

Again 1300 is just an example. Instead of thinking 1300 think MWx2, which applies to any country.

Room and board might be a great perk if you are a single woman with no other home to maintain, but often these women have a husband and/or children they are also sharing expenses with, or they keep a small room elsewhere so they have someplace to go on their days off. And although many women do it, I personally would never want to be totally dependent on my employer for a roof over my head, it just makes you too vulnerable to being taken advantage of because you have no other options.

I don't consider 2x minimum wage too much to pay someone to care for my mother. (I don't have a paid caregiver, but I like to think I value both my mother, and someone caring for her, more than that.) A lot of caregivers are in fact paying all or part of the rent where their families live. And their wages don't just go on basic person expenses. They can be taking courses; supporting children, or there own elderly parents. They are people who don't just stand, turned off, on their days off.

"After 20 minutes yelling, being rude, saying and unsaying, I said: If you can't decide, I decide for you, you leave tomorrow. . . . . .So I said FINE! you stay one month, you can search for a job here so you don't have to go back....you know what she did?"

Unfortunately, this person was a master manipulator. THEIR sob stories are not your problem, so don't let them become your problem. I would have told her, "I'm so sorry that your family is so horrible to you. Unfortunately, this isn't working out for us, so TODAY will be your last day." If I feel particularly guilty, I'll throw in some extra money on departure, but NEVER let them stay around if they are causing problems. Their anger will end up biting you in some way (theft, destruction, absence, bad care, etc.)

You'll be better off if you stop focusing on what pay you think they should be happy with and instead focus on what is the competitive rate in your area. When you find an employee willing to work for rock bottom pay, there's usually a reason (absences, theft, unreliable, etc.)

As an employer, I would never look at pay that way for my employees. I always check around with competitors and then tried to pay my employees more so that I could attract the best employees.

This is not a personal attack but rather my own thoughts on a topic that has bothered me for years.

It never ceases to amaze me what our society is willing to pay for a haircut or a fancy cup of coffee- yet the rate paid to the people giving care to our children and our elderly is crap.

I’m not talking the rate paid to the facilities- I’m talking the typical daycare worker or the typical CNA. Ask one of them what they make per hour.

Carenightmare--

You have had an incredibly bad run of help, I'm sorry to say.

I worked Elder Care---it was brutal, exhausting work. I worked through an agency and was paid minimum wage---hardly a living wage--and I worked HARD. $1300 a month to do what I did 24/7?? There is NO WAY I would accept such a paltry sum and consider myself recompensed for what I did. A good caregiver is like a ruby! A bad one, well, you know.

Keep trying to find someone who works well for you. You've seen the bad, but there are good ones out there, trust me. But you're probably going to have to pay more. You feel like they aren't "doing much" but they are THERE and you don't need to be. How much is that worth to you? Just not having to think about whether or not your LO is alone and lonely, or has someone with them 24/7. Really, in many cases, you couldn't conceivably pay ENOUGH for that kind of peace of mind.

At some point, a MW worker NEEDS and DESERVES a raise. The turnover rate at my company was about 80% per year--people just could not get by on MW. We weren't live in--some workers did night shifts, but were paid time and a half. Still not much.