Offering room with all included isn't part of the payment for care?

I'm sorry you're so frustrated, there really are no easy answers. Decent facilities are not always available. Home care is often unreliable and costs more than many can afford. Even those of us who choose to care for someone out of love are often overburdened financially, physically and emotionally. Our elders are living longer and with greater physical and cognitive difficulties than ever before. I wish things were easier, but unfortunately they aren't :(

Indeed. And it's more because of the market then the real work needed. The market knows there's few alternatives.

"I can ask for 20 000 000 000 to clean your bathroom, is it normal?"

What someone asks is irrelevant. What the market will bear is the answer. Isn't that how you are paid for your job? If you ask 20 million, your employer will find someone else?

And you can't compare to Nanny salaries. If I were offered the same salary for a Nanny job or old person caregiving, I'd pick the nanny job every time for the same salary. Cute little babies versus cranky, smelly old people. It's not comparable.

Say that to nannies then. They, like everyone here told me, will tell you why their job isn't easier and that you're being unfair and all the things I read. How mean and cheap I was, and all. Also, wasn't availability the criteria to be paid more? Is a nanny less available then a CG? Well, my MIL can walk, a cute little baby can't. My MIL can express through words, a cute little baby can't. My MIL doesn't cry and yell relentlessly when something aches, my MIL can be cute and her diapers only smell like urine not rotten jar food. Also a nanny doesn't only take care of babies, there's nasty brats too. And she could be studying or taking care of her family instead of being there available, and she needs food too, and maybe she has babies at home, what if she lives there but has family elsewhere? etc etc etc.

At first I though you were just ranting about dare people demand so much, but now I am starting to think you are very frustrated and unhappy. Perhaps you can't afford or provided the care you want for your mother-in-law. I am new here, and don't have many answers. However, if you can reframe your question to specifics, I expect there are people who can help you.

This isn't a 'shift' that ends after 8 hours - if you're living there, you're always on call. That's the point of a 'live-in' employee. I don't think they'll have enough time to take a bunch of 1-hour showers, based on the scenarios I've read elsewhere in this forum. Would you be willing to do the work at less than $45/day for a complete stranger instead of a family member? Plus, there are expenses besides food and board. Medical bills, credit card debt, car payments, saving money for retirement... and for when the job comes to an end and they have to start over.

"Say that to nannies then. They, like everyone here told me, will tell you why their job isn't easier and that you're being unfair and all the things I read."

The point is, you can't compare the salary of elderly caregiving to nanny jobs. As you pointed out, they are very different jobs. I'm not unfair to you. I'm only pointing out that the MARKET determines what the going rate is for each job.

You know what? I had this whole long reply written, and then I went back and re-read some of what you wrote, and I decided it's not worth it.

You started with one situation and evolved it into a whole different scenario, and ranted at anyone who had commented before you provided the pieces of information they might have needed earlier.

You just seem to want to rant and be angry at people.

You seem to need to be "right" regardless of whether you are.

You don't seem all that interested in the opinions of, well, pretty much everyone who disagrees with you or who puts a greater value on caregiving than you do.

In fact, you seem to just want to justify what you plan to do to future employees and get support for that.

I wonder why you've had trouble with employees so far. 

So I'm done. I wish you luck.

Ok Dorianne, so you did read
- that you assumed I didn't want to pay a salary - which I never said - and from there you went on calling me cheap?
- that I pay above average for the CG I hired?
- That the live in caregiver was a scammer?
- That the woman who conned her was paid MW for a couple of hours a day?

1) My questions:
a) shouldn't the house expenses be counted as salary + MW?
b) is 2xMW reasonable? I think not
I give an EXAMPLE: "Let's say someone earns 1300 a month" - it's an example, won't apply by the number to every country, so multiply MWx2

2 - I paid all the CG I've hired what you say it's fair and more. But since you can't think universally, I explain again in USD how much the agency charges me for one hour service, how much above the average that is, and how much THEY pay the ladies: they charge me $15/h, when a CG asks for $10 and the agency - NOT ME - pays them $6.
SO I PAY MORE THAN AVERAGE, they only clean superficially, they never stay the whole hour, and someone stole jewels, but I don't tell the agency about their job because I don't care, just as long as the basic is done, which it is, and because I know how shitty they're being paid BY THE AGENCY, THE AGENCY not by ME

3) The Live In I hired wasn't underpaid, she just wasn't looking for a job, but for a house - she said this to me. She's a scammer looking for someone to support her. She offered her services as a CAREGIVER, so I thought she was willing to take care of an elder. But she wanted someone who couldn't move, think or talk or was out all day in a care center, so she could have the whole house and day for herself. She said this to me later!!
She came and asked me half MW+housing. I offered her the double+housing, she only had to take care of MIL's hygiene and AS ANY LIVE IN - HAD TO LIVE IN - so if I needed to go out, she should be here, if we came from the doctor she should be here, the rest of the day, I couldn't care less, she could go out, and OH she did, I did the shopping, cleaning, cooking and taking MIL out. She didn't have to be here while I was, but it wasn't suppose to be out all day, that's why I paid her the house bills so she LIVED IN.
She was a scammer. That's why she left.

4) The lady who conned her was making a MW to come 2 hours a day, plus vacations = MW/month, and all the extras were paid: gas, parking tickets, AND she ate here, my MIL went out to have lunch with her offered by MIL...so no, it's not cheap.

This is your answer:
- that I didn't want to pay a salary - I never said that, but you make it your main point
- the market decides - ok, so it's not the effort
- house consumption should not be applied because in other jobs that doesn't happen - yes, but in other jobs people don't take showers, eat for free and wash their laundry
- but "can consider room and board PART of their wage, but certainly not their whole wage" - so YES, IT CAN be counted and AGAIN I never said I wasn't paying a salary too.
- "a lawyer would certainly be able to sue an employer on an employee's behalf if they were only paid in room and board" - Again you insist that I only wanted to pay for room and board, when I never said that.
-You take the example of 1300 as a rule - I said it's an example just multiply MW by 2 which will apply to any country
- "don't make the assumption that an employee doesn't have other expenses" - I didn't, but for some reason you and then Meallen insist that I said I wouldn't pay her more than room and board and I dictate what her expenses are...

After your answer on false assumptions about what I said - that I didn't want to pay a salary - , four other people followed your wrong lead saying "1300 isn't enough", that I was cheap, how is it going for me?, etc etc which is not an answer to any of my questions, just adjectives.

Then to justify the 2xMW+house bills many claimed that the CG has a very hard personal life, a family, another job, school, etc, as if it was different for everyone else in the world who makes only MW and also has to pay for their house+bills, or a nanny. They too have hard lives, they to have expenses.

The availability had a price. Right, it's true. So I went to look for other Live-In jobs and found the nannies: a live in makes less than a live out (wonder why?), although a live in has to be available 24/7. Is it because they already paid her the housing??? And benefits are included?

Not everyone disagrees: Some said it depends, even you said room and board could be counted, and for nannies that does apply for years, but now nannies don't matter, it's not the same, they don't have the same life and same effort as CGs - they take care of cute little babies how awesome! -, so we can all devalue the nanny's job and life but never question the CG's job and life; we can devalue any MW worker but never a CG.

then, the same way many don't have any problem devaluing the MW worker or the live in nannies, they can accept that institutions do ask more than they should, but again everything in the world is questionable, except the CG's job. It's the market, so it's not the fairness.
I don't want to devalue people's work, but comparing to a nanny who has the same responsibilities and expected availability there's a difference in salary and rules. It's not because babies are cute! They are cute for some people, and "cranky smelly people" to other.

What does your husband say about it? It's HIS mother, after all. Also, whose funds are being used to take care of MIL? (Hope it's not yours!!!)

UGH!

Nightmare, call an agency and ask what 24/7 care would cost each month. My area? In excess of $12,000.00 a month. Since worker is required to be there it is not considered part of salary. Compare the 12K to your 1.3 K, less benefits of a heated work place with water and electricity. Unbelievable that you would think this at all fair. Not anywhere in the U.S. or Canada. Maybe Mexico, third world countries. If that is part of consideration you should supply that information. That would be different. You came on a website that is geared towards caregiving in the U.S. and Canada. If that is not the case then you have come to the wrong place for support to justify your slave labor.

She pays for all her expenses. He helps me hiring people and the idea was to take care of her while we worked on finding a better/the best solution. Now we're waiting for a very decent home care facility to answer if they can accept her. I'm really praying they do, because for the same amount we've been asked for crappy holes, she could be in a really decent place, where they are treated as adults, not children, entertained, stay active and be in very clean and comfortable spaces. Let's see what happens.

Caring, you are being taken advantage of by your BF. You posted on another thread:

 "I'm taking care of my boyfriend's mother and after only a month and a half, we're on the verge (if we didn't already) of breaking up. I've been irritated, anxious, stressed and sick of being stuck with her. I'm alone all day, the only two people I see and talk to is she, who only talks about how she's not feeling well or simply complains about something, or about stuff that is completely not how I see the world; and then the live-in caregiver who we hired but doesn't do much. So lately I've been very angry at these opportunists, manipulators and my bf's assumption that I'm just making a better use of my time...like a hobby. I've asked and begged him to do something about it, and became what I never wanted to be: a nagger! Now he's tired of hearing me, and I'm tired of his selfishness. . He says he can't take it anymore (!) I said I can't take it anymore and if it's too much for him, then we should take a break and he said great. I'm not sure if I mean it or not, but I couldn't control myself anymore. I'm stressed. If I can't talk about this without crying, it means this situation is causing me a lot of stress and I'm feeling powerless to solve it"

Get out, run, run as fast as you can! BF's family is responsible for this situation and you are getting sucked in. What would you consider appropriate payment for care that you are providing???

gladhimhere: please go back a few posts where I alreadyexplained 100 times that 1300 was an example, it means 2xMW, because to me, where I live, almost in 3rd world, 1300 is 2xWW. Do the math and apply 2xMW to whatever country you're in.
So I'm not saying I'm paying 1300 USD, I'm paying euros in my country. It's not the same rate. And I ALREADY Said that many many many times in this thread.

About the BF, I know. I explained that too later on that thread.
About the amount: as I said on this thread, this is a basic need, just like food, and the "market" shouldn't just decide based on demand. If so, anyone coud ask for 1 million and say "i won't move a finger" but the market says 1 million.
I asked if MW(a bit more)+Housing (which is a huge slice of anyone's salary) isn't good enough

A Euro is $1.18 dollars. What third world countries use Euros?

Mine

MW here is in 16th place in Europe

Thanks for the (past) info from OP, gladimhere!

Why write that it's your MIL, when it's merely your bf's mother? You live in a poor European country? Then what we do here in the U.S. has no bearing on you, so please stop arguing with us. Argue with your bf.

You know what you have to do...MOVE OUT.

it's easier to say MIL than boyfriend's mother. We're family any way. No one marries nowadays
yeah, nice attitude. "live in a poor country? go back home!" My country is just as poor as many other in europe. If I lived in Germany would it make a difference? No.
I thought this was a world wide internet forum for caregivers. No one asked for my nationality.
I see. Caregiving is not a US matter, it's a universal matter. I honestly thought this community was for ALL of us to share ideas.
In that case, and seeing your attitude toward "poor countries" - which is not the case, but apparently you don't know much about Europe - I too have nothing more to say to you.

gladhimhere did basic research: went to my profile. It's not a secret. It's there. If I feel sorry for you all the time, I'm welcomed, if I question "MOVE OUT"

Bulgaria? Only have stats for 2016. Average salary, 400 E; ranges 280-550/ month depending on area. The MW is 214 E/month. (When working out the difference between per month vs per week you need to divide the monthly rate by 4.33.) I'm not going to do the math to work out the hourly wage. The cost of living is 45.57% less that in the USA (and of course the COL varies over the US). Rent is 75.48 less than in the US.

Yes, we assume that everyone here is from the USA. You may have noticed that our fellow Americans, the Canadians, identify themselves as such.

Give the differences in the economic situation in Bulgaria vs. the USA, it was rather cheap of you (pardon the expression) to come blasting in here without letting us know all the facts. I might also mention that you, first, described your home as a third world country.

Oh, I couldn't find your country on your profile. Where would I look, please.

That's probably because we're not asked to say where we come from. I couldn't find yours either.

Actually, it's interesting when joining my 2 threads together I can see how this community works. My only post was about taking care of my....MIL (yes, that's what she is to me and it's easier this way), and it became a thread for everyone bashing my BF. I tried to answer the many questions not about my MIL, but about my boyfriend, who was not the point of the thread. And still the community kept more focused on my BF

Now I ask if it's fair for a Live in CG to ask 2xMW (valid in any country) because (and it's US data) live-in nannies with the same expected working hours and availability earn LESS. And this ended 1) again in my BF 2) a lot of misreading and wrong judgement from there 3) not US? poor country? MOVE OUT

SAD

Live in nannies don't make the same money not because they take care of cute babies, but because this is a new business where everyone - oh, I'm sorry, the market - is taking advantage of elderly retirement money. And this is a www issue. We should all question that, not just blindly accept things.

No, it's not bulgaria and that is SOOOOOOOOOOO irrelevant
I gave universal data: MW that's proportional in every country...I said multiply MW by 2.
Fill in the gaps. MW in bulgaria x 2, MW in US x 2, MW in Italy x2 MW in Zimbabwe x 2...
it's a proportional rate.

I said "almost 3rd world". I thought you would understand the joke. But never mind.

Let's talk about my country, my boyfriend, my boyfriend's mother and how INSANE it is to call her my MIL!, and about how cheap I am. Forget my question. Let's go get some tea and discuss my personal life instead of my question about the fairness of the market you so much love and that is the reason why we're all stuck helplessly with our elderly at home and joined a www community for CAREGIVERS.
Gosh...

I didn't say that if you looked at my profile you'd see where I lived. You implied that if we'd bothered to look at yours, we'd know where you are.

Look, we'd love it if there was government money to take care of all elders in decent, if not luxuries surroundings, but that is not the case, at least in the US and your country (I am still assuming Bulgaria.) You started this thread by saying that you thought what you want to pay was fair. Some of us (I can't speak for everyone on this site don't agree, using your rather fuzzy logic which suggests that we can what is true in one country to all counties. Among other things you don't address is the fact that how well one can live on a country's MW (or 2xMW) depends mostly on that cost of living in that country. I've given you data on Bulgaria, which as far as I can tell, is your country (it's not my fault you won't confirm or deny that) that shows a comparison to the USA, and you don't seem to take that in. You must have realized very early on we had no idea what country you were in, yet continued to write as if your situation was based in the USA. And you have been a bit, shall we say, fluid, about your situation. That's okay--we often summarize or leave out details, or don't mention how our situation has changed over time. However, it seems odd that you are put out when people take you at your word. I have no idea if your 2xMW + board idea is ethical or not in Bulgaria or where ever you are. It certainly is neither legal (as several posters have mention) nor ethical (in my opinion) in the USA.

" You implied that if we'd bothered to look at yours, we'd know where you are." WHEEEERRRREEE????? Where did I implied that????? Oh for god's sake!

I'm not from Bulgaria. I thought it would be super easy to know the country and it's not!! I SAID 16th!!!! ALL YOU NEED IS TO COUNT TO 16!!! - I DON'T CARE!!!! THAT IS NOT THE POINT!!! AT ALLLLL!!

Yes, I did ask if housing shouldn't be counted as part of the salary. LIKE NANNIES in US DO
MW is proportional to the cost of living in any country.
My fuzzy logic was this

I ww citizen make (MW)_______ In the end of the month I have to PAY rent and house bills, so (MW)________ - __________(house + bills) = MW-2/3MW. Money left = (MW)_______:3

I a caregiver make 2x (MW) __________ in the end of the month I don't have to pay rent and house bills, so 2x (MW)________ - 0 (house+bills) = 2xMW______, so Money left = 2x (MW)_______

Let's fill the gaps. MW would be 2000. AS EXAMPLE

I ww citizen make (MW) 2000  In the end of the month I have to PAY rent and house bills, so (MW) 2000 - 1333 (house + bills) = MW-2/3MW. Money left = (MW) 2000 :3 = 666

I a caregiver make 2x (MW) 4000 in the end of the month I DON'T have to pay rent and house bills, so 2x (MW) 4000 - 0 (house+bills) = 2xMW 4000, so Money left = 2x (MW) 4000

Sorry, we cross posted. And yes, where you live is relevant. You can live above the poverty level in Australia on their MW; not in the USA. Italy does not have a MW: wages are set by unions, in most cases. Neither does Zimbabwe, does it does have regulations covering minimum payments to domestic workers. You want to talk about world wide problems covering the "fairness of the market you so much love and that's is the reason why we're all stuck helplessly with our elderly at home." You don't seem to know much about the world wide situation, but lets pass over that, and turn to the question does the "fairness of the market" cause us to be "stuck helpless with our elderly at home." BTW, "stuck helpless with our elderly at home" does not cover everyone's situation here, but we can certainly discuss why some people, world wide, and in that situation, and how the free market causes that. It would help if you could define "stuck" and "helpless" for us, so we are using the terms to mean that same thing.

I'm throwing names by chance....zimbabwe isn't even in europe....I give up...i give up...

Ah, Slovakia? The data is handled differently by different sources. I am sorry about that.

Search the forum:
"Helpless" results:
https://www.agingcare.com/caregiver-forum/search?term=helpless

"stuck"
https://www.agingcare.com/caregiver-forum/search?term=stuck