My question really is: If an elderly person's psychiatric records prove (and document) that the person was mentally ill and/or delusional at the time that they changed their estate plan, can the changes to the estate plan be invalidated upon proof, even after the elderly person has passed away? What is the process to get the proof and then have the changes invalidated? My severely mentally ill and delusional dad changed his part of my parents' long-standing estate plan. Because the standards in his state for proving mental competence are very low (does the person know their name, address, phone number, have a sense of time and place--- basically a mini-mental test), his estate atty did no more than this cursory check, which he passed. His atty was unaware that my dad was under psychiatric care at the VA in his city. Had she legally been required to also have 2 drs certify his mental competence, in addition to the mini mental test, and/or to have him seen by a Psychiatrist to assess his mental functioning or checked with his Psychiatrist, I believe that my dad's atty would never have allowed him to change his part of my parents' estate plan. He unsuccessfully tried to change my mom's part of the trust, but legally couldn't because she had already passed away (and even if she had been alive, she had dementia and wouldn't have been competent to agree to the change). My dad has been very successfully able to hide his long-standing mental illness and fairly recent delusional behavior from non-family members. His atty remembered him from 8 years previous when my parents had changed their estate plan and when my dad wasn't delusional. Even at that time, he had hidden his severe mental illness from her. So, she appears to have just gone on what she knew about him before. Given his pathological lying and his ability to manipulate and blindside people, it appears that he did this with his atty and she allowed him to change his estate plan. In my opinion, when someone in their 90s suddenly decides to change their estate plan, this should raise all sorts of red flags in an estate atty's mind. And, whether or not it's required by law to do so, the estate atty should do more than just a cursory mini-mental test and should be go the extra mile to contact the elderly person's drs to certify the person's competence and should also seek to find out if the person is currently or has been under psychiatric care. If not, the atty should request that a psychiatric evaluation to determine mental competence be done. Until drs and a psychiatric eval have certified an elderly person's mental competence, the estate atty should allow no changes to the estate plan to be made.
Good to see you again! That national expert I contacted apparently didn't have an hour to read my five pages and say whether or not he thought all the players in this tragedy SHOULD pay attention to the NPD and how it "poisoned affections" and "perverted sense of right." Regardless, we are at the negotiating stage about the 90K. Those cousins (i.e. lying thieving hypocrites) are soon going to have 10 days to accept that they have to pay back to me and the trust OR go to court. I'll probably get less than the 90K but it'll be substantial.
I'm nearly finished with my longer 10-11 page article/essay to the law professionals about NPD and capacity. Down to writing the last couple paragraphs and will then start emailing it out and posting it, asking all those places to please pass it along too. I believe, as you started this thread, that we can get people to see that NPD DOES affect capacity, "poisons affections" and "perverts sense of right." That's EXACTLY what it does!
So hopefully soon the psych and law people will say: Let's sit down and have a closer look at this!
I'll come back here to try to let you know where to find my article when I post it.
Take care!
I'm glad that you're at the negotiating stage and hope you get most of the 90K.
Re: your 5-page letter to the experts: I've found that the shorter a letter is and the more it highlights the points you want to get across right from the start, the more likely it is to be read. So, if a letter can keep it to one sheet of paper, both sides, in a sort of outline format with the important points that you want to get across as main bullets and just a few supporting points within each bullet, it takes people less time to read and, therefore, makes it more likely to be read. Very likely, the expert really didn't have time to wade through a 5-page letter.
Anyway, keeping my fingers crossed that the negotiations go your way and that you're able to get most, if not all, of the 90K.
The hurricane last week caused a delay in the response to our settlement terms. Maybe something by the end of this week... They might feel a double whammy!
Stay tuned...
A week later, still waiting... The cousins have supposedly rec'd our letter with our terms but seem to be ignoring it. Meanwhile, the trust HAS drafted a suit against the cousins to make them repay the 90K, BUT because of my father's obtuseness with his "no further payments out of principal to (yours truly)," the trust is claiming anything IT recovers will go into the principal. All of which brings me back to square one with trying to get them to give discretionary payouts when I need help at the ER for a heart attack or stroke. The trust will probably still say I'll have to have REDUCED monthly stipend after that. And... more ridiculous, it seems the trust is still protecting the principal such that 1) I am locked into my monthly amount, no more and 2) if I predecease the cousins, they'll get all that protected principal OR if I do happen to outlive them, then my wife and daughter and their greedy, financially reckless and irresponsible culture would get that protected principal of maybe 300K or more. Meanwhile, I might have to pass on an ER trip because what I do have should be there to take care of my wife and child in case I predecease those my father's second cousins...
I keep hoping the craziness of the time remaining before Nov 8 will make someone say: So that's what NPD is like?
By the way, just curious, was your father an only child? Was he doted on too much as a kid? I'm trying to put the puzzle together of my father's early life: parents divorced before he was 7, doted on by his mother, aunts and older female cousins, yet his mother was probably very neglectful and abusive of him too.
Stay tuned... more still to come in this tragi-comic twilight zone I'm living in...
Sounds like a mess. Where does interest from the principal come into play in this? I sure hope you get this straightened out. If the cousins ignore the note from your attorney, does it default that you could automatically get the 90K? Or, could your attorney send the cousins a collection affadavit?
My father was the 4th of 5 kids. But, he was the first child of the 5 kids to be born in this country soon after my grandparents reunited after a 10-year separation. My grandfather had come to the US first to establish himself, leaving my grandmother and their 3 kids in the Ukraine, while he saved up enough money to pay for their passage over. My father was born 9 mos after they reunited. And, between being the first born in this country and a boy, to boot, his parents doted over him, making him the center of the universe. They abdicated their role as parents, giving in to him and letting him know that he could never do any wrong. The world revolved around him and all he had to do was throw a tantrum and he got his way. This was he beginning of his narcissism. But, his older sister told me many years ago that he was born with a dark side and was a disruptive force in the family from the beginning. And, with my grandmother trying to adjust to a new country and a new culture, not knowing English, and then being reunited with a husband she had been separated from for so long, she already had alot of adjustments to make. She didn't have the stamina to put up with my father's BS. So, he got his way. My uncle, my father's youngest sister's husband, who had known my father since they were teenagers, told me that as long as he ever knew my father, he was a narcissist, not caring who he hurt (even his parents and siblings), not caring whose feet he stepped on, always being put on a pedestal-- just as long as he got his way. My uncle has described it as my father being treated as if he was "the first coming".
In terms of the 11/8 election and NPD: I doubt that anything will change even though people have acknowledged that Trump is a narcissist and has NPD.
Anyway, sorry that you're having to go through such hassles and hope that something breaks in your favor.
Good to hear from you. The interest would be what the cousins would have to pay since the date of the mysterious 90K check 4 yrs ago this December. The interest would wind up going wherever the money goes. I'm waiting to see if the cousins are dumb enough to think they can win in court or, if they lose, have to pay the 90K, interests, and all the legal fees up to this point. That would basically be a negative in name only, since they'd never be able to do that. Hence, my concern the trust and the cousins may do an end run without letting me in on it. The nitwit atty for the trust wrote in her latest two-sentence letter to my atty to remind of the "No further payments out of principal to Tim." The draft of the suit also ignored that my name was removed from the accounts the VERY NEXT DAY after my last phone call from over here to him when I was in the most desperate financial situation of my life: no money for food or meds for asthma. What gets me is when Dad died there was a small CD with my and his names on it at the same bank. So... if removal of my name from the account that the 90K was in is questionable, why should the ultimate ownership of that money be so damned hard to figure out? Oh, and we have a copy of the hospital record that shows he WAS CHECKED OUT of the hospital on the day of the bank visit BY THE SECOND COUSINS although, with his NPD and sadism, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the old man's idea to do that. Still, what does it say about his state of mind to go remove my name from the acct and while at the bank do nothing to wire me some money to buy life-saving meds and food for my family?
My father was the only child of a couple that divorced before WWII. After his father was kicked out for philandering, his mother, her sisters, and his older female cousins all doted on him. Like your uncle said: The First Coming.
After high school, Dad enlisted and did basic training near Wash, DC. He said the reason his unit was sent to the safety of Germany instead of the hell of Korea was because Truman found out Dad was singing in a church choir where Harry attended one Sunday. Further, while in Germany, Dad was assigned to drive Gen. Eisenhower around on a post inspection. THAT got him into a university AND a federal gov't job afterward. Oh, and we are distantly (very distantly) related to another president, RMN; we even have the same last name though I wish we were related to the watch and accessories company!
1.Can you tell me the reason(s) that you decided to make changes in your will?
2.Why did you decide to divide the estate in this particular fashion?
3.Do you understand how individual A might feel, having been excluded from the will or having been given a significantly less amount than previously expected or promised?
4.Do you understand the economic implications for individual B of this particular distribution in your will?
5.Can you tell me about the important relationships in your family and others close to you?
6.Can you describe the nature of any family or personal disputes or tensions that may have influenced your distribution of assets?
Interesting re: your relationship to RMN. I don't blame you, given what happened during his presidency, for wanting to be related to the watch and accessories company.
I too look at DT every day on the news and say: He's projecting! He's triangulating! He's seeking supply! The way this year has been, the Grand Ol' Party probably WISHES they could have my "Uncle Richard" back again!
I have finished my article for sending around and posting for the legal professionals to hopefully read and ponder the implications of NPD on capacity. Will try to find a way to let you know where to find it online.
Still waiting on the trust to file the suit. The time is running out. Still haven't heard back from any attys I contacted in GA about filing a motion for me to intervene and join the suit when it does get filed. And now it looks like the whole country will find out what it's like to deal with a true Narc...
One other little thing relevant to your orig question on this thread: In my 1st mtg with the trust, the trustee cpa/atty read to me from a letter that said originally I was to get NOTHING from Dad.
It dawned on me the other day that that can actually be interpreted by a true expert at Narc DISCARD, and to me thus PROOF of NPD poisoning his affections and perverting his sense of right (capacity) AT THE TIME the trust was drafted. how to use this now...???
Reading your part2 post, sounds like a bad situation with your wife and MIL. Just what you needed in addition to the stuff with your dad. I'm not sure I see how your dad's original note could be interpreted as Narc discard, unless there are other things in the letter that point to NPD type stuff. Maybe I'm missing something here. His saying that you were to get nothing from him could be interpreted as simply that he decided not to leave you anything and he could do with his money what he wanted and leave his money to whomever he wanted. I'm not sure that statement of you getting nothing represents or proves that NPD poisoned his affections unless there are other things in the letter pointing in that direction. And remember that the standard for testimentary capacity is quite low. As long as your dad could correctly answer some simple questions-- his name, the date, your name, his birthdate, who the US president was, to name a few examples-- his attorney would have concluded that he was mentally competent to make the choice to take you out of his will. That's what my father did. Yes, he was mentally ill and NPD poisoned his affections, but testimentary capacity doesn't check for that stuff. There would have to be a note or some sort of record from a Psychiatrist showing that your dad had NPD that clouded his judgement. But, I doubt that an estate attorney would go to that length to get that info. An estate atty just wants to take the easiest route, do the least amount of testing, and collect their money.
Cousins have been deposed. The last doctor also, who said my father was not rousable two days before the 90K check and was in rapid decline. As for the signature card change, did I mention there's a hospital release form where the cousin signed my father out for four hours and went to the bank? Also, the records for that hospital show my father was put on Ambien over a month before he WAS CHECKED OUT of the hospital and taken to the bank when my name was removed from accounts.
End of discovery period is this next week. We'll see what happens next...
Reading your description of your long nightmare, especially the part with your NF and the authorities, I see all Narcs are pretty good at playing to an audience (as we see in the news even the last couple days). Sometime, in his last couple of years, my father apparently complained that I was overseas here in Asia "adopting some of their ways of thinking." Well, that was a lie and a calculated statement to get PITY from his bible-thumping audience. I have equally strong criticisms for the modern forms of the primary religious influence both here and back there.
He also LIED to them when he said he was ostensibly "giving" them the 90K "because Tim would be worth more alive on his monthly stipend than if he took that much back there with him." Oh, yeah, great, "give" that much money that could save my life in the event of a heart attack or stroke so that my not having that much would keep me from being killed here in Asia. Sounds like every other Colombo movie of the week. (I would not bring all that here anyway; keeping it in US dollars makes more sense in the event of a major currency devaluation here.)
Something I found relevant to YOUR original question here and mine: Sam Vaknin, "The grandiosity hangover and the grandiosity gap are the two major vulnerabilities of the narcissist. By exploiting them, the narcissist can be effortlessly manipulated. This is especially true when the narcissist is confronted with authority, finds himself in an inferior position, or when his narcissistic supply is deficient or uncertain."
That middle sentence (ignoring the dangling modifier): "effortlessly manipulated" and "undue influence" seem to fit like jigsaw pieces. The question remains whether a judge will allow my self-educated analysis of my father's personality disorder despite the conflict of interest. "The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Well, your Honor, I AM the ONLY ONE who knows the whole truth! Meanwhile, that second cousin of my father's is saying he remembers hanging around with my father during summer breaks from school. Well, when L was six years old, my father was 24 and about to finish college, after which he got married and moved clear across the country to work for Uncle Sam.
Stay tuned...
First of all they are quite intrusive. No attorney has the right to ask those questions of anyone. And if the attorney did what would he do with the responses? Tell the individual he can’t proceed? What basis would any attorney have to deny that individual to make the changes he wants? None, no right whatsoever.
People have a right to manage their own financial affairs. NPD is a personality disorder, yes. But again, wasn’t it your father’s right to do with his money as he chooses?
NPD or whatever, it is what it is. NPD is not a psychosis. NPD does not equal incompetency. I understand the difficulty it may present in dealing with a NPD’s behaviors, but it’s not for you to judge or determine free will by your dad vs how NPD “May have” affected his decision to refuse financial pay out to a family member or anyone for that matter. Neither is it the responsibility nor scope of practice in law to do so.
You look at things scientifically, you say, yet you are asking people with no formal psychological training to ask questions they have no right to ask and then determine if that person or even legally deny that person (in this case, your father) to make changes in his financial planning.
Nothing scientific about that.
I hope you get what you are looking for & you may very well be entitled to. $1500 a month is a nice stipend. I’m assuming with your 4 degrees you have a career of your own thus the $1500 plus your salary is better than nothing.
Your expectation of “experts” in the field of NPD writing you a letter stating your father’s behavior “may” be a factor is unrealistic. An expert would review all material available to them prior to writing such a letter, & that’s why they denied your request.
I wish you and your family well. Asia doesn’t have the best atmosphere for asthmatics as you may know. You might want to consider moving to an area with less asthmatic triggers if you are making so many trips to the ER. Inhalers are expensive here in the US and not expected to decrease in price. I hope your health improves as well.
Hm. That is a poser, I must say. I wonder what the judge will decide?
When contesting a will, problems arise with issues concerning mental capacity where a disease affects the mind over a period of time, e.g. Alzheimer’s. In such patients it is often the case that on some days they understand matters and on others their memory is lacking. To succeed with contesting a will, it must be shown at the time the will was executed, the testator did not have the capacity to make a wi