Caring for a narcissistic mother, need advice on how to cope.

Sylvial,
AgingCare pages have described dementias--I think there's a page dealing with it, as a single subject. Have not searched it within AgingCare lately, but it must still be there, since so many have to deal with it.
It's pretty tricky, especially in earlier stages, for those closest to the elder in question.....it's kinda like a frog in a pot of water...start it out cool, the frog is fine...bringing it slowly boil, the frog gets cooked without realizing it's happening.
You can also Google "dementia signs and symptoms"
One site at the top of that list:
http://www.helpguide.org/elder/alzheimers_dementias_types.htm
Gives some comparatives between normal aging and dementia.

Even knowing the signs & symptoms, it's real tricky to figure when "normal aging" becomes "dementia"--even professionals miss it--sometimes even when the elder has progressed significantly
--perhaps related to an elder being very good at "show-timing", as many are, until signs and symptoms get really advanced.

If one has any reason to believe, from their elder's behaviors, that OTHER mental ills have been an issue during the elder's lifetime, it might be a good idea to get evaluations sooner than later...
Many elders [and non-elders!] manage to get through life hiding some fairly dysfunctional mental ills--families just think they are having "moods", or "bad days", or, "that's just how things are", etc.
Fears run high related to mental ills; treatments for them used to be pretty horrible, back when our elders were trying to get by; they often avoided diagnosis at all costs, to avoid those horrific treatments
CUE: they might have avoided seeing ANY doctor for anything, ever, unless it was pretty cut-and-dried, like a broken bone--fearing a Doc who saw them enough, might witness the mental instability and diagnose it--whole 'nuther bunch of things to fear!
Things are much better these days.
Some symptoms of some mental ills, alcoholism, etc., may resemble dementias:
if someone has not been properly, fully diagnosed, they could end up being inappropriately medicated or treated.
IF other mental ills or substance use are going on, treating those might decrease need for other meds that fail to work or cause adverse effects, since meds focused on dementias, may, or not, be proper for certain mental ills or substance use.

In any case, putting legal documents and finances together, in advance of need, is very good idea.

I read that the narcissistic traits,, are also precursor personality traits of dementia. My mother has dementia, My 53 year old brother has all of the same personality traits.. I can't help but wonder if he is in the early stages or will be developing dementia.. Does anyone have any knowledge on this? Thanks

thanks so much for your response. I didn't know anything about well-checks! Also, I am guardian of my youngest sister (whom has a developmental disability), so I am not thrilled about additional care for Mom, admittedly :).

DGin GA--
I LOVE your solution!
Sure wish I'd thot of something like that when Mom was under our roof!

As for not taking it personally?
Wish I could--it would have been easier, if my siblings had not suckered for Mom's lies....they all live at distance; Mom would call them and lie like a rug.
Got them believing her tripe.
She managed to cut me from her herd, entirely, as none of them will carry a sane conversation with me, going on for years now. But they all act like it's me choosing to not communicate--and that's what they tell people. Not one of them admits they are the ones refusing to communicate.

I almost hope she now does that to the one who moved her in with them--but I'd feel bad to have that done to anyone.
It near destroyed me; I wouldn't want Mom doing that to anyone further...yet, revenge might feel just a little sweet, if she does.

Kegdaughter--
PLEASE avoid feeling guilty about your Mom's condition---she got the dog, not you.
SHE chooses to only feed it and fail to do proper hygiene for it.

When someone exhibits narcissistic traits, there are usually other mental ills that go along with that, all of which largely have gone undiagnosed and untreated for years--or their whole lifetimes..
Do yourself a favor: avoid letting an elder who behaves that way live with you under your roof--those behaviors get far worse, and bad for your health!
You CAN call the health department about filth in the house
--or else, have officers do a "well-check" on her at her house: when you call 911 to request that, describe that you are "...unsafe living conditions...concerned house has filth that might cause disease or injury to the elder living there..."
Well-checks can be asked for, even weekly, if the elder might be in really bad conditions.
BTW--you would call 911 in the area your Mom lives in, not yours [unless it's the same].
Well-checks can help officials see when an elder needs more help than they can get staying home, and can help assess if they really need to be in a facility--and it removes that task from family members who may have been shunned or treated badly by the elder, or, in case the elder refuses help or counsel from family members.
It helps them get the help they need, sooner than later, and might prevent them becoming ill or injured from living in unsafe conditions that might not be able to be helped otherwise, by family members.

My mother is 71 and has trouble taking care of herself. She has been truly narcissistic all of her life and I've had trouble believing she has ever loved me. One of our current troubles is that she has a dog (she obtain about 8 months ago) that she has never trained. She feeds it and that is it. I will not go into her house because of the obvious condition it is in, and I feel so guilty about this.

DGinGA ... my mother used to do that when my sister would come to town. She was also doing it with my brother. And, in the beginning, when I was working more hours and my niece was sitting, while I worked, she did it with us... tell stuff to either of us that just wasn't true... and then we began comparing notes. It all boiled down to a pattern that mother has used all of her life... of complaining about this or that, to whomever, and wanting them to fix whatever it was that she perceived was wrong... instead of her handling her own situations... but, that might mean she'd have to give more in the give and take. She wanted everyone else to be the heavy, because she didn't want anybody angry with her. Mother isn't in control of her life anymore, and she wants things just like she wants them, when she wants them, period. That's the sad part about becoming disabled, to the extent that she is, you really aren't in control of your life, anymore, at least not as before, because real life human beings are caring for you, being your arms and hands, legs and feet. We went through a bunch of this for some time, until my siblings finally saw and realized what was going on. I would have really serious conversations with her, because I wanted what was best for her, whatever that might be. I offered to move out and let someone else move in. I just needed to know what she wanted/needed, so that I could go forward with getting my life in line with that. I am an out in the open, everything up front kinda person, so I did bring it all up at family meetings. She would never admit to anything she said, never has, never will. But, the end result was that it was confirmed, by all, that she wanted me there. She would still complain from time to time but it's only because she, like me, takes some things personal, on a bad day. In many ways, we've become like a grumpy old married couple.. and that's scary :o Coming here has really really helped, for real, because after having gone through all the junk, there's someone who finally can identify with the whole thing. Whereas I don't get out, alone, for time to myself, I do get her about to her social functions, as much as possible. And I try and find ways to entertain myself (this is one of them) and "change" ... it's not just her who has to change, it's me too... because everything HAS changed...

Smitty, narcissism, dementia, whatever your mother's problem is, let it be HER problem and not yours. When my sisters and I started caring for our parents a few years ago, we took my mother's ranting and raving very personally. She was a witch when it was just family in the house, but as soon as someone from Home Health Care was there, she would be just as sweet as pie - but the minute her daughter (whichever one was there) would leave the room she would start complaining about how mistreated she was and how awful we were to her and how we just wanted her to die and she was afraid to have us there caring for her. The first couple of times I heard this nonsense I came back into the room and yelled at her to stop telling lies about us. I would be crying and defensive and humiliated that my own MOTHER would say these things.

One day the Home Health Care nurse asked me to walk her to her car. In the driveway she told me that I needed to stop taking the junk my mother said so personally. She said the health care workers can tell when someone is being mistreated, and it was clear my mother wasn't. The house was cleaner than it had been in YEARS (they had been coming to the house a lot for about five years before we took over); my mother and father were clean, bathed, hair washed, clean clothes, etc. They were obviously getting enough to eat, getting their meds. The ambulance wasn't having to come to the house once or twice a week like it used to. She said that when old people - especially those with dementia - only sit around the house all day and have nothing to do but ruminate about themselves, they blow everything up out of proportion and look to have a pity party when any outsider comes to the house. She gave me a hug and said, "Don't take it personally!"

The next time a Home Health Care worker came by, my mother started in with the "poor me, I'm so abused..." nonsense. I walked back into the room and very calmly said, "Mom, if you think that your daughters are not providing an adequate level of care for you, then I will go out this afternoon and find a skilled nursing facility where you can get 24/7 care. We can probably have you moved there by the end of the week. Sounds to me like this is what you'd prefer. OK?" Then I just stood there and looked at her. (Sending the non-verbal message, "The ball is in your court, Mom!") She sat and stared at me and then looked down and said, "No, of course not. I wasn't talking about YOU!" So I calmly said, "Well, the next time we hear you accuse us of mistreating you, that is EXACTLY what we will do. Understand, young lady?"

Since then she's been pretty good, but I still use the threat when she starts getting out of line. And I think she knows I'd do it.

I agree with Rockhard that it is well worth it to seek a doctor's advice. Even the family doctor can give you something for her. A mild daily dose of celexa has made my mother much easier to live with. I doubt I could handle her without it.

Sue: I don't know what to say after reading all of that... It sounds like that's more than just elderly sickness (your mom, throughout your childhood etc...); Wow!! I'm so sorry you had to go through all of that, you just continue taking care of yourself.. I don't know, but I think you will still be there when really needed...(EMERGENCY).

Annet: I'm sorry, but that was funny (you actually made me laugh out loud), and this is the other way I cope, by reading others stories...and know, it's not just me.

You don't have to understand why and spend your emotional energy being confused. The behaviors ARE . Toughen up. The narcissist will not understand your need to be understood. She will not care a bit that you are hurting. I moved 40 hours away to protect my own life. Another family member stepped in ( hopes of inheritance) and now says, "You were so right!".

Your mom really do love you, but when it comes to the elderly various sickness ie...demensia etc.... It's like they don't know they're hurting your feelings, even though you might tell them; it's like they're the only person that matter and the only one that has any feeling..but to me they really don't know that they're being mean, and hurtful. I have learned too, as you say "detach", and mute the mean, hateful stuff out. To me, my mom is as if she don't know right from wrong; nice, mean or rude..so I let it go, because I'm not trying to let her make me sick. I've been blessed, that my brother agreed to stay w/her, and I love him so much for what he's doing w/her. He is "God Sent", and he's dealing w/her so much better than I was...I still have a hand in helping (guardian of person), but he actually lives with her on a daily basis ("win/win situation", because he's 65 w/few med issues, and he wasn't living in a stable location).

My father is and has always been as so many here have described it. The issue now is that he cannot take care of himself or live alone. I live 1200 miles away and after driving here In April for cataract surgery, it was apparent he can't live alone or even in assisted living. For 3 weeks he yelled, ranted cursed, berated, every waking minute and he was so hyped up he didn't sleep much so often he was yelling thru the night. He was paranoid, accusing everyone of trying to steal his money, describing conversation he had with political figures on TV, insisting that little kids, 10 years old were coming into his room and stealing (chocolate bars, glasses, socks, clothing, watches you name it), he would wKe up in the morning sitting in his chair and tell me he couldnt sleep in the bed because of all the children. I videoed his behavior and showed it to the Opthamologist, who bless her, said immediately, "I know a neurologist you need to see". The neurologist listened to my description for 5 minutes (I saw him alone first) talked to my father and prescribed Quetiapine (seroquil). He said that the aging brain often cannot produce enough serotonin or dopamine and that type of behavior is the result. He's been on that med for 5 weeks now and the raging has almost stopped. The paranoia emerges when talking about money and sets him off onto days of lesser ranting again. He's more rational, yet still out of touch with reality and his capabilities. (psychotic). His self centered ness is still there--he doesn't consider anyone except himself and what he wants, but at least he is easier to deal with and less unhappy all the time.

If you have not done so, see if you can have a geriatric psychiatrist (that was out for me because of his paranoia) or a neurologist with a psychiatric specialty, see him. I got him to the neurologist by telling him the neurologist could help lessen the pain (arthritis) in his spine (not a lie, part of the brain is part of the spine).

The other helpful thing I stumbled on when looking up quetiapine, was a site on behavior modification for dementia patients.

I can't find the site that had the specifics, for what to do, but they were things like avert eye contact, turn your head or back on them, walk out of the room if they persist, leave the house, try bribes with favorite eg cookies, try distracting them with another topic or activity, but here are some other sites that address behavior modification in dementia patients.

Good for you, Sue. Happy ending!

I also have a abusive mother. she has always been a very selfish, needy person all her life. Her mother was the same way, so I have broken the family mold here.
Dad left mom once, but she refused to give him a divorce, so he moved back in.
she was never there for me. I was beaten up in my own house by an ex boyfriend in my own bedroom. my mother was in the kitchen cooking. she didn't stop it, and when I asked her why she said "you must of deserved it". My brother used to beat me up, same answer. I have had numerous medical problems from this abuse for years.
I moved out of the house at 19 because i couldn't take it anymore.
Imagine you asking your mom for a ride to work, only to have her drive away and leave you to hitchhike to work. there are other things, but you get the picture here.
I was belittled in school because she never took the time to do my hair, or help with my clothes, nothing.
I got sick at twelve and she waited until I lost 40 pounds before she called the doctor. i had an acute appendicitus and had to have emergency surgery. My father made her call the doctor.
I got married and she never ever helped with my son (i always had to get a baby sitter) i handed her my son when we first came home from the hospital. That lasted 5 minutes and she handed him back.
Now would you say my mother really loves me? doesn't fit into her plan.
there were five of us kids. my brother died in an accident, and my two brothers moved out of state. my sister (who was the last child) is the only one who got any attention. she lives over an hour away from my parents. Guess who lives the closest? you guessed it, me.
For the last 15 years they both expect us (my sister and i) to come down and take care of the house, the yard, and them. I have helped them when ever I could. there was never a thank you, atta girl, nothing.
I have tried to get them into an assisted living place, and guess who won't go? yep, MOM.
I have been trying unsuccessfully to get both my parents out of the big house they don't need, or take care of, or clean, or repair. the smell and filth is enough to make you gag. They will not leave. So now after trying for so long, I have given up. I have cut them off completely. They both forgot my birthday and my sons (phone call would of been enough, but never happened) so I just stopped showing up.
I am sure the NEXT emergency i will get a phone call, I always do. My sister says it's too far to travel, and everyone else is too far away. So once again, I am the person who has to take care of them.
Mom has fallen way too many times. Dad has bladder control problems. Assisted living would be perfect, but they will not listen to me, or any of us kids. So they can stay there and when one gets hurt and ends up in a nursing home, they will expect me to take over. Not a chance, unless it is my father. Mom can sit there in her home that she had to stay in and rot. sorry if this sounds horrible to most people, but I am sure they really DO have a loving mother, not like mine.
Most of you must think I am a horrible person, I am not. I just let them do what they want and I have just distanced myself because the frustration was so bad it was making me sick.
I do have however a good story to tell here,
Ruth my Fiances mom, sold her house (she knew she could no longer take care of it, and she didn't want us to do it) and moved into an apartment. that was fine except the apartment owner was abusing all the older people (over charging them for normal repairs, elevator not working, ect) so I suggested that she move in with us (my fiance and I bought this rancher together, and my son was already living with us) she paid to have her apartment built, new heating cooling (to handle two different settings) and she is such a joy to have around (like the mother I never had) so you see there is a happy ending here. I have gained a real mom, and closed the door on the one who was making me sick. It may not be for everyone, but it works for me.
thanks for letting me get this out. I feel much better now

You are a part time caregiver of an independent living elderly parent by what I can see who is causing you a lot of stress due to her nacisstic behaviors. My advice, become temporarily unemployed from your caregiver duties to her. I have been there and done that. My mother has decided to get outside help and no longer whines and complains about the most trivial problems. I stopped being her emotional doormat. Her choice was to either have me in her life respecting me or be by herself in her own misery. It took a lot of guilt, but slowly I was able to get over it.

Oh, yeah! A few months after my youngest son was killed I was visiting mother. She wanted to have someone over for tea while I was there because it was easier for her. I told her I couldn't do it. She went ahead and phoned them anyway, so while she was n the phone I repeated I was not up to a tea party with a stranger. She got mad at me and told me I was rude.

Actual conversation:
me: I have to drive to 2 hours each way to tend to your grandson who has a high fever.
mom: Is it warm enough to wear a dress to dancing instead of pants? Everyone says I look good in the good in the blue dress.
me: I'll be back in a few hours.
mom: How am I going to get to dancing?

Hi all. I liked Rich's post about the grandmother and choosing a new and different topic - I found that sometimes worked also - I was the evening care person for a woman over 7 years - she died last Friday morning. I grew so close to her - I can also be opinionated as she was, and sometimes people disliked me for it, as they also complained about how difficult she was - but because I had those evening hours, I just tried to stay rested, and arrive with an open mind on my 4 shifts a week, including one overnight. And when she was afraid to get out of her recliner, as she told me once, because she could not remember what was around the corner in the hall, or where her bedroom was - she would lash out mercilessly sometimes, and I used my method, listen twice, then say I'm leaving for a bit. And if she didn't stop after that, I also found that sometimes making a remark about the weather or something else, would help us both take a break from the struggle I had to engage in, to persuade her to get up and use her walker to get to her bedroom. When I was able to be more successful with her, I liked her better. Of course it was much easier for me, because she was not my mother - but I came to see her as the best alternate mother I could have, she was fun and smart, and loved coaching and teaching me, and I was glad to learn from her, and to be her friend. Now, when the person has died, the family arrive from all over, and the aides become invisible again.

My grandmother (mom's stepmom) was always like this. Fiercely competitive, self-absorbed, and attention-seeking. Don't get me wrong, she was a wonderful woman and we loved her very much, but there was a lot of eye-rolling going on behind the scenes. We all tried our best to take her personality with a grain of salt, but it did get very tiring constantly listening to her sighs, whining, complaining, constant focus on negativity all the while saying, "Well, I don't want to complain..." or "You know how I'm always positive, but [insert complaint here]..." You get my drift. We fortunately didn't have the anger issues, but we definitely dealt with a narcissistic personality for many years.

What seemed to work for us was we'd commiserate for a bit, then get tired of it! So we'd find a way to redirect the conversation to another topic, sometimes a little abruptly. For example, "That must be really hard. Say, did you watch the baseball game last night?" Or "By the way, your garden is looking beautiful!" or "That sweater is a wonderful color for you." Whatever might be an interesting topic for her that could get her focus. This did two things: it focused her on something pleasant other than herself & her medical problems, and it helped us keep from getting really frustrated with her and making the situation worse by snarking at her. We knew that she did love us all, despite evidence showing she only cared about herself & her own concerns. We knew she had a very tough upbringing, and we were all so grateful for her being a wonderful stepmom to my mom and raising her after her mother left.

My grandmother developed Alzheimer's and was thankfully mostly unaware when she was painfully dying of pancreatic cancer. It may be strange for some to hear me say this, but her personality changed for the better with the onset of dementia (she no longer remembered to constantly complain), and we were able to have very nice conversations with her, for once. Even if she couldn't remember them later. Now we can look back, shake our heads and laugh about her foibles, and remember the good times: how she was an amazing cook, how she was a competitive card shark, how much she loved grandpa, and how much she loved us.

The definition of narcissistic includes characteristics such as lacking empathy for others, grandiosity, pre-occupation with self, inflated sense of self importance, doing anything to get ones own needs met above all others even if those you are supposed to love are hurt. If any caregiver is actually dealing with an elderly relative who has been diagnosed as narcissistic, you have a tough, tough job, and probably need professional advise on how to handle that, and find some way to know when you just can't handle it anymore and need help. Fortunately, my mother is not that, even though she is preoccupied with her health needs, and as a mom always put her children's needs before her own. Right now, she is just frightened ( and is in pain) as she watches her independence, and health disappear, so I listen, try to be patient, wait until I get home and alone to scream or cry, and make sure I give her a hug every night before I leave just in case she has gone to a better place when I return.

Now knowing & learning more about her narcissistic personality, (she's been this way her entire life...probably why my dad drank & they divorced), I see I am fortunate that I am NOT like her. I am the polar opposite (more like my father).
I just need to try NOT to talk about it with folks that don't understand narcissist personality & Dementia, or understand how sometimes personality traits are magnified magnified with the onset of Dementia.

HangInThere17 I keep reading references on this book. After reading comments on this thread, I now know that I'm not alone. I thought I was doing something wrong (even though all of my mother's closest friends told me what an excellent job I am doing along with my brother). Her closest friends even tell her it's a blessing that I moved here. She still acts out with resentment towards me. Never says a thing when they compliment me, only tells them how "difficult I am" etc.
Ordering this book TODAY on Amazon.

Read the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells"! It's about Borderline Personality Disorder and Narcissism is a part of it. Also the bouncing from love to lies and meanness. The book has a lot of helpful ways to cope. Good luck!

I like Whitney's advice. I feel like what I'm doing is ok and I don't feel guilty (at least right now) for detaching and limiting my interactions with my mother. Its just too stressful and I literally have panic attacks at times when I have to interact with her.

Castle's advice" "excuse me, I'm doing something right now. I'll be back soon." And explicitly claim your space, not by explaining or defending it, but not hiding the choice either, just repeatedly expressing your choice openly - that eliminates confusion and guessing for the other person." Is what I do, only I am a homebound caregiver except when my older brother (the favorite one) comes over to "relieve" me. A few hours out of the house helps, but it's not enough. When he is not here, I have to retreat to my room (her house and her former guest room that she tries to control my space too). She tells her friends that Im "crazy" because I stay in my room, but it's my way of protecting myself and the only peaceful place in the house for me where I can't interact with her.
When she starts with her bad behavior towards me I go o my room and tell her I'm working. It's a "white lie" but I will wind up insane if I don't protect myself.

I totally understand. I am my narcissistic mother, with early Dementia, full-time caregiver. It is unbearable walking around on egg shells daily I found an article/post on this forum about detaching. I am sure your mother loves you, as I am sure my mother loves me, however, it's the nature of the beast of a narcissistic mother daughter relationship.
Google narcissistic mothers and you will know that you are not alone.
I am now realizing that her behavior had a huge impact on my growing up probably why I moved away to attend college to the coast. Unfortunately, after 30 years I had to return home (well not had to but she is my mother) to care for her. I literally never came home except once a hear for the holidays (which historically difficult for me due to her narcissistic ways I endured growing up in a dysfunctional home.
Her behavior is now more pronounced due to her Dementia and I often feel like I can't take it and want to just walk away from the situation.
The guilt trips she tries to lay on me.
Her manipulative behavior.
Her twisting things to get her friends and sister to "side" with her, making me look like I'm the bad one.
The list goes on and on.
I still care for her the best I can, just had to detach and not interact with her. I literally avoid conversations with her, because as caregivers, we HAVE to take care of ourselves. Our lives cannot stop because of our situation. This is something I am trying to do, but it is extremely difficult due to the complicated situation.
My mother thinks she's fine lived independently up until this past fall when she was hospitalized with an acute UTI and TIA that brought on the Dementia (that was already there I think, she was "masking/hiding" it or trying to. A common thing with some folks that suffer from Dementia who were highly independent.
Don't take your mother's remarks personally. It's not YOU.
My mother is a "my way is the right and only way" person also. Plus she's a retired teacher so she comes off as a "know it all" (comments my friends told me when meeting her).
I feel horrible at times because I just want this to be over. I am trying to find a balance between caregiving and having a life. She refuses to let anyone (home aid etc. ) come to assist because she thinks she's fine.
Her Dr's have told my brother and I that she cannot live alone. We have to escort her to the Dr's appointments etc. Once my brother dropped her off and went to get gas and the nurse called me on my cell phone asking why once of us were not with her.
She constantly calls her Dr to ask if she can start driving again (he says no and thank God her license expired when she was in the hospital).
Understanding their personality traits is certainly a good thing, and I too feel better after reading your post.
We certainly have tough jobs.

Take care

Smitty...you are dealing with a horrible situation and what she says and does has hurt you greatly. I would like to see you at least go to see a therapist/psychologist once a week just to vent. I have to tell you that I was already seeing one for my disability but when I became caregiver, it has been a blessing and I look forward to my one hour each week. It has brought some peace and understanding into my life.

You are a wonderful person, performing an extremely difficult task and taking abuse for basically loving your parent enough to be there for them. Treat yourself to therapy, it is a blessing!

Sometimes with a narcissistic person it is best to say as little as possible, because that way they do not have anything to "feed" off of, and they cannot misconstrue what you said. Although it is OK to talk about "light" things, such as the weather, etc.

the jeckle and hyde might be more borderline personality mixed with narcisistic....most narcissists are self absorbed but dont go back and forth with emotions